Dr. Tina Fornwald welcomes author and broadcaster Jack Church for an honest conversation about finding healing after loss following the passing of his wife. Jack shares how writing daily letters became the foundation for his book, Year One of Grief, and offers honest insight into navigating sorrow, stepping out of isolation, and opening your heart to new possibilities. Whether you’re newly widowed, years into your grief journey, or supporting someone who has experienced profound loss, this conversation offers compassion, practical encouragement, and hope that healing is possible. They address common misunderstandings about how men grieve, the physical release found in tears, and why taking simple steps outdoors can help rebuild daily life. Together, Dr. Tina and Jack explore faith, resilience, and the courage to embrace a new chapter while honoring the past.
I am sharing my experience of loving the same man for 32 years, a mother to two adult children, a retired military officer, a breast cancer survivor, and my connections with others.
Anyone experiencing suicidal thoughts should reach out to a suicide hotline or local emergency number in their country: Psychology Today Suicide Hotlines and Prevention Resources Around the World.
—
Watch the episode here
Listen to the podcast here
From Widower To Hope Again: Jack Church On Surviving Grief, Healing After Loss & Finding Love Again
Our conversation is with Jack Church from K-Love. Jack is a widower. Jack has 30 years of experience walking on this journey. What Jack also has is showing us how to hope again, how to walk back into the light, and entertain the possibility of love. Let’s get into this conversation now.
Jack, welcome to the Widowhood.
Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to join you. It really is.
For somebody that’s tuning in and they’re going, “Pleasure to join you to the Widowhood,” what would make you say that? What would be the backstory to say that’s welcoming?
The backstory. See, the front story was you’re warm and inviting.
We’ll stick with the front story. As far as the backstory, I know a lot has happened in your life. Take us back to how the moment in your life shifted in the path that you’re on now.
Understanding The Sudden Weight Of Spousal Loss
As you know, I lost my first wife of over 30 years. It was October of 2019. For those of us who have experienced loss like that, it’s incomprehensible the amount of grief that you will experience. It was hard. I was working in local television as a TV weather guy in Oregon at the time. I was her full-time caregiver as well for about eight months leading up to her passing. I’m doing that in the day and the evening and doing the weather at night and praying and praying that she’s going to be fine. It didn’t work out that way. I lost her.
I’m like, “This hurts way more than I ever thought it could. I will never forget, Tina. I do not know why this popped into my head. She and I used to talk about which one of us would go first. I now realize I would say, “Hopefully I’ll go first. I want you to live a full life.” Now, knowing the pain of the loss, it’s like that’s an unfair statement. It really is because it is so hard. I would never wish that upon anyone to go through this, but for any of us that have been married for any length of time, it’s inevitable. It’s going to happen. I mean, it really is, unless you go down in a plane crash, a car crash, something like that, one of us in a relationship will experience that loss.
Thank you for sharing that, Jack. Let’s go back a little bit further. First of all, what is her name?
Losing a spouse brings intense pain, but taking things one step at a time helps you navigate the hardest days. Share on XHer name is Pam.
What was life like meeting Pam and before her passing?
I met her in high school. We went to two different high schools, two different counties. My dad had an industrial supply company. Her dad was a bivocational preacher, but he was also a purchasing agent for a local factory. My dad called on him, and they mentioned that my parents had a son. Reverend Prince, Claude Prince, said, “I’ve got a daughter.” The parents went out to dinner, and they said maybe they should meet.
An arranged relationship, basically.
The thing is, my parents gave me her number and I waited like six months to ever call her. I was very shy. I was getting ready to be a senior in high school, and I finally called her. Our first date, I still remember. We went to Jackson, Tennessee. We saw the movie Star Wars, and we ate at a restaurant called Skeeter’s. It was magical. She was great. We just had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot. We had fun, and we dated. Roll forward, though. Senior year high school, senior prom night.
I’m getting ready to go off to college in Jackson, where we would go on our dates, which is like 40 miles from the town we lived in, which to high school kids, that seems like an eternity. She wasn’t sure what she was going to do. I suggested on our prom night, said, “We probably should break up since I’m going to be going to Jackson.” I know we broke up.
What was her response?
It’s funny. I could probably cry thinking about it. She was shattered. She was like, “Really?” I went, “Yeah. I’m going to be in Jackson. You do not know where you’re going to be. We probably should do this.” Roll forward, though. The other thing is different. She was a Christian. I was not a practicing Christian at the time. Not really a true believer. I think God had his hand in that as well because sometimes I felt a little pressure because her dad was a preacher. She was very active in church.
I wasn’t. When I went off to college, I started getting involved in church. I came to know the Lord, I became a Christian, and I found out that two years later, she was in the back of the church where I got baptized in Jackson, Tennessee. She had heard about my transformation. She was there. I then found out she had come down to go to college in the same town I was in. She was dating a guy, and I told her, “This guy’s a loser. You need to be with me.”
Pam’s with the loser two years later.
Now she found the winner has returned, and we got married, believe it or not, four months later while still in college.
Jack, you mentioned that you weren’t a believer when you met Pam. There are people from all walks of life tuning in to this podcast, and they’re going, what do you mean not a believer and what difference does it make if I was with Pam and I wasn’t a believer? What does that mean? Can you share more details instead of just a statement that may not be familiar?
I’ll do it in simple terms. It means a follower of Jesus Christ, believing that he died on the cross for our sins. That if we believe in him, we will have eternal life with him in heaven. I believed it. I was a loose Christian, casual Christian, but Pam was really into it. It had been her life. When I accepted Christ, for the Christians who may be tuning in, there’s a part of the Bible that talks about when you get married, you need to be evenly yoked. By that, if you’re both believers, it’s going to be way easier. It just really is.
Once we were evenly yoked, we knew it was right. It just felt right. We had a beautiful marriage. We really did. I’m not looking at it through rose colored glasses either. Looking back, after she passed, it was great. We had people tell us so many times tell us, you guys are amazing because we moved a lot, because I was on television. We moved all over the country. We had two kids. Pam always had a smile on her face. She’d go, “Where are we going next?” It was great. It really was. I was truly blessed.
Thank you for sharing that. Thirty years, and you mentioned I could still cry now about something that’s happened that long. What are some misunderstandings about grief, particularly as it relates to men?
Embracing Tears As A Natural Mechanism For Healing
Crying, I do not think people, and even some women too I’ve talked to. I do not realize there are healing properties in tears. There truly are. The first couple of years after I lost her, I would just break down and cry hard. Hard cries. I started realizing, “Man, I feel better after doing that.” There were times I would actually intentionally put on something I knew would make me cry because I felt like I needed to cry. It’s like there was a series on Netflix called Afterlife with Ricky Gervais, and it always told me with incredibly rough language in it.
It was a series, a three-year series he did about where he had lost his wife, and he was my age. He was a younger guy. His wife was a younger woman, and he lost her. The series resonated with me. His thoughts, his feelings, his actions. I would go back, and I would watch episodes of that that I knew were particularly hard to watch. They would make me cry, and I would just feel better. It really is, if there’s any men tuning in or women as well, and you’re thinking, no, I need to stop this crying thing. No, do not do that. You’re taking something beautiful away from you.
Sitting inside four walls won't heal your heart. Stepping outside into nature helps you reconnect with life. Share on XYou really are. Now I do not cry much anymore. It’s pretty rare now that I do. Now I can look back and actually smile at the memories and things like that. It’s not, “Woe is me.” I also take comfort. Tina, my Christian faith tells me she is fully healed and restored, and she’s doing great. I think she’s happy that I’m doing better now because, as I said, I’m sure she was like, “Honey, can you please try and get better?” It’s a process we all have to go through.
When you say get better, what does that mean? Get better compared to what?
This is really good. This is something, because you and I have talked to a lot of widowers and widows. The one thing that I always tell people, it’s a hot button for me, is, “You got to get over it and get going.” I’m like, “No, I do not get over it. I learned to move forward, put one foot in front of the other.” That’s what I have learned how to do. That’s what I’ve progressively gotten better at. Moving forward one step at a time. That’s what it takes. I can remember going to restaurants by myself. It was hard, but I made myself go. I knew I needed to do that. Pam and I used to hike all the time.
Stepping Outside To Break The Cycle Of Isolation
Was it hard going by myself? You bet it was. I’d sometimes see the shadow in front of me and go, “I wish I could see her shadow too.” I didn’t, but I kept going. I didn’t isolate myself. That’s part of healing and getting better. You’re not going to get better just sitting inside these four walls and staring at them all day. It’s like my 97-year-old adopted grandmother Lola told me before she passed. She said, “Jack, she says, you can throw all the pity parties you want, but nobody wants to come.” That’s a reality. That’s a hard thing to hear. Boy, it is so true. It really is.
You mentioned something, Jack, about doing the hard things versus isolation. Have you found that people have convinced themselves that isolation is safe? I’m in my protected space, and going out doing all those hard things makes my grief worse. If so, what do those conversations look like as you’ve spoken to so many widows and widowers?
Women especially, I’ll hear them say, “No, I can never go to a restaurant by myself,” or “No, I could never take a vacation by myself. Only men can do that.” What’s funny is, though, I remember the first trip I took was just a few weeks after I lost Pam. I decided to go hiking in Utah. What’s funny is I met three single women who were widowed, who were hiking too, who’d gotten out there. I asked them, “How does it feel?” They go, “I feel like I’m alive for a while. I’m really sad when I go back to the hotel, and my husband’s not there. I just feel alive being outdoors.”
I said, “Do you share this with other women?” They would tell me. I remember one in particular. She was from New York City. She was a young widow. She was maybe 31, or 32 years old. She says she was in a grief share group. She goes, “I tried to tell them, convince them that if you would just go outside, you would feel better. Trust me.” She says they were so scared to go outside the doors. It was beautiful to run into people who did do it. That was the thing I found too. When I would get out, I would tell people, “I almost had widowar.” Widower but widowar.
That must be a term you coined. I have never heard of widowar.
No, I’m telling you. I’m convinced. My kids said I had widowar. I could be in a crowded restaurant, spot somebody, and I could go, “I bet they lost their spouse.” I would go over and start a conversation with them. 99 % of the time I was right. When I was on these hikes, I would strike up these conversations. It would be a widower. I remember I was in the Badlands of South Dakota, the guy at the entrance there. He said, “What brings you to the Badlands?” I said, “I’m trying to be out here and hike.” I said, “This is something my wife and I love to do.”
I said, “I’m going to keep doing it.” He goes, “Man, I just lost my wife about six weeks ago.” I said, “Let me pull over the car.” I pulled over the car, parked, and we went into his little guard hut, and we talked for about an hour. It just opened up so many people to me. It really did. It made a difference in my life, like you’re doing here, sharing those stories, sharing those experiences, and knowing that we weren’t alone on this walk because there’s always going to be the guy or girl that goes, “I know how you feel. My dog died.”
I’m like, “No, not even close.” “My favorite aunt died.” It’s not to diminish their loss. Not at all. When you lose a spouse, you know this from experience. It is life-changing, altering. It really is. It just is. That’s what I always say too. Losing Pam was the hardest thing ever in my life, but it has made me a better person. It has made me more aware. It just did. My life, is it better? Some aspects, yeah, especially all my empathy for others and giving and things like that. It truly changed me.
Thank you for sharing that because when you’re in six weeks of this, it’s incomprehensible that life would be anything different than what you’re experiencing. If you were to talk to yourself, Jack, having kept all the things you’ve learned, and you could talk to you the day after Pam passed, what would you tell yourself?
I would probably say, “I know you’re in a deep, dark hole right now, and you feel like you’re grabbing on the walls of this hole, and there’s no possible way you can get out of that hole. I would tell me, as hard as you may think it is to believe, you will be able to grab the sides of that hole, and you will make your way up. One day you’ll actually get above the darkness and be back in the light.”
Is it time alone, or are there actions that require that climbing process? Do you think there’s truth in that, or is it what you do during the time?
No, it’s what you do during the time. If you just sit there and wait for it to get better, it’s not going to happen. I met a young pastor in Oregon, and he meant well. I’ll never forget, he told me, “From what I’ve seen, usually most people start to get better around six months.” I just asked him, “Have you ever lost a spouse?” He goes, “No.” I said, “Trust me, it’s more than six months.” You might want to revise that number because it is.”
Now there’ve been a few people that I’ve heard of who made what appeared to be a quick turnaround. In my opinion, again, just my opinion, you’ve got to give it time. Do not jump right into a relationship. Do not try seeing people and looking for that next spouse. That’s not good. I’ve run into a couple of those people, and most of the time it didn’t quite work out because you need the time. I’m glad I took a lot of time before I decided to do that part of life again.
Thank you for sharing that because I think there is the thought that men just get married right away and they’re not sad about it.
I’ve heard people say that, but I’ve met enough male widowers to say “That’s not the case.” The men I’ve met. There was one guy I know who got married pretty fast, and he’s still married and seems really happy. It was a girlfriend he’d known from high school. Maybe that was a little different, and she also knew his wife. I’ve met a lot of men who have struggled and taken their time and made it back. They’ve made it to the light again, but they took time, and it took me time.
What are some things that worked for you at that time? I know you talked about forcing yourself to go outside to do activities. Were there other things that you found that were helpful for you coming back to the light?
I did. First of all, too, in hindsight, sometimes I think I should have taken more time off from work. Basically, I took four days off because the TV station, it’s like, “This is so silly.” I was like, “I do not want to be a burden to the other meteorologists on staff.” It was the weeknight guys, the weekend guys having to fill in for me, the morning persons having to fill in for it. I got to get back. I got back. People watching at home, they’re like, “He seems great.” I knew how to do it. I could put on the happy face.
Writing down your daily raw emotions gives your grief an outlet and helps track your steady progress over time. Share on XThe mask.
My first night back, the station said, “If you want to take a couple of minutes and share with the audience.” I did, and that’s actually on YouTube now. They posted what I said and did. That was helpful to be able to discuss her. I showed pictures, and I talked about the loss. I got back into the routine of doing the weather. That was a good thing. Six months later, COVID hit. We all went into lockdown. At the TV station, I was doing five newscasts a night, and every newscast was so depressing. I’m going to tell you that it became really hard being Mr. Happy doing the weather with all this terrible news and going through my grief.
The only way I made it through it now, I think, is 6 or 7 years post-COVID. I’m fine saying this. I did. I broke a lot of rules because I had to. I didn’t wear the mask all the time I was supposed to, because it made me feel confined and back in that hole and things like that. Oregon had some of the strictest standards in the nation. They told us on hiking trails we were supposed to wear a mask. I didn’t, because one good thing about being in Oregon, the only good thing about being in Oregon during COVID, was I had amazing hiking trail opportunities.
There was so much we didn’t know about COVID. There were so many people finding out as it went along, and to all the people that are tuning in to this conversation and your loved one passed during COVID, and you were not able to have conventional ways of celebrating their life and grief that impacted your grief in a way that we are still trying to research and understand how that has impacted you and your family. My heart goes out to you in that loss.
As I said, you had widows and widowers that could not have a service for them. I could not do anything. The outdoors again saved me during COVID. It really did. Now, other things. You asked about what other things you do? As time went on, I’m a huge sports fan. I went to Oregon State football when they returned to play. I went to basketball games. The movies may have been harder than anything I had to do. Going to the movies was super hard. The reason being, I basically forced Pam, carried her to the car, and took her to the movies like five days before she passed.
She was out of it the whole time. Again, I’m still this, “She’s going to snap out of it.” She wasn’t. I did have some, you might call it trauma. The first time I went to the movies, I had those thoughts about, “Why did you put her in a wheelchair and take her to the movie theater a week before she passed? Why would you do that?” I had to realize, eventually I had to let go of that guilt and trauma and go, “I was just doing the best I could.” Now of course, I can go to the movies without a problem. That was one. I just tried to stay actively engaged.
Honoring Cherished Memories Through Creative Rituals
I did not give up any of the activities that Pam and I did after her. I tried to get to it like golf. We golfed together all the time. I’m going to tell you what I did, though. I would still play golf, but what? I kept what’s called a double scorecard. I would have her name and my name, and I would hit two balls and pretend she was playing with me. I did that for about six months. The golf club where I would play was so nice. I did not want to be paired with anybody. I just wanted to play by myself. They understood what I was going through, and they would let me do that.
One day, Tina, this is actually a great story. I was on the seventh hole. It’s there in Medford, Oregon, a small municipal course. The course ranger pulled up. That’s the guy that patrols the course. He says, “Are you playing for Pam today?” I go, “Yes, just as always.” I hit my shot. It was a par three. I’m an okay golfer, and I got it on the green. I hit the second shot, which was Pam’s. The ball rolled up on the green, and I lost sight of the ball. The Ranger goes, “It’s in the hole.” I went, “No.” He goes, “It’s a hole in one.”
I went, “Good, it was Pam’s ball.” Because I walked, he raised his cart up to go to the hole. He’s jumping up and down. He’s more excited than I am. I think he’s going, “It’s in.” He goes, “We’re putting this on our board because they put people’s holes in one. We’re putting it up there that Pam Church got a hole in one on this course.” After I did that, though, I stopped playing two balls and started just playing normal golf again because I’m like, “That’s good. Not going to get any better than that.”
Thank you for sharing that story, Jack. The other thing that I love about that, there are some things that we do for a while that, when the time is right, just no longer serve us. I can relate to that. My late husband ran the military. There was a Red Lobster near the base, and we would go there for somebody, one of our birthdays, and our wedding anniversary. When Mark passed, I went back to Red Lobster every year for his birthday. This year, as I was eating, I felt like, “I’m done with this.” I do not think it suits me any longer, but for the time that it did, it was amazing. That’s helpful for people as they’re going through their grief journey. They may find that this one particular activity is extremely helpful, but in time it may shift. You do not have to force yourself to keep doing the thing you used to do because it does not work.
It’s funny you mentioned that. I’ll tell you something I did for Pam’s birthday for about the first three years I do not do anymore. The first year, I was living in Phoenix because I had now left television. I’d moved to Phoenix, and I had these baseball cards made up with Pam’s picture and said, “Happy birthday.” I then bought 25 happy birthday cards. I put her little baseball card in it, and I put a $5 gift card to this local coffee shop called Hava Java in Phoenix. They got to know me, and I said, “Her birthday is coming up.”
I said, “I want you to give the first 25 customers one of these birthday cards with the $5 gift card.” I told them it’s her birthday. They said, “Do you want to be here?” I said, “No, I do not want to be here.” I said, “I’ll just be at home.” They ended up at this little coffee shop. They put up some happy birthday balloons. They gave out those cards, and people then found the backstory, and they would seek me out at the coffee shop because I went there all the time and tell me how sweet they thought that was.
What I found was, and I bet you did too, in those first few years, I started, a lot of people say, “I dread the birthday.” I would look forward to the birthday because it’s like, “What am I going to plan this year?” I would do that. I did the same thing on our anniversary. I went to a restaurant called 52 Seasons. They’re a piece. I reserved a table for two, and I made them do a place setting for two and a total of four, and in the end they comp the entire dinner, and then they gave glasses of champagne to people in the restaurant.
I did not do it for that, but it made it fun. It’s funny doing the show with you. I’ve forgotten some of those things over the years. That stuff got me through it. I had to learn. Do not dread those special days. Just make them special if you can. As you said, after a while, the dates are still with me, but I do not place a big emphasis on them or anything like that now.
I find that trying to push it down, trying to hide your emotions, takes more energy than just celebrating, leaning in, and talking about them. You mentioned that you’ve spoken to so many widows and widowers, and tell us a little bit more about your YouTube channel and your widowar and how you’re connecting with people and how that worked for you.
It started off when I met a friend of mine. He became a friend. His name was Jim, there in Medford, and he had worked with some grief-sharing groups, and he had lost his wife, but then he had remarried. What was funny about this was we had had a Christmas party when we first moved to Medford, Oregon, where Pam invited the entire neighborhood. We did not even know anybody in this neighborhood. We had like 60 people at our house just showing up, dropping over for this Christmas party.
Expressing Raw Emotions Through Daily Letter Writing
I did not know it at the time, but Jim and his new wife at that time were at our house that night. When he heard through television that my wife had passed, he reached out to me and ended up keeping involved. Anyway, he knew I was struggling. He said, “Have you thought about writing a letter to her?” I said, “Yes.” I created a Facebook page called Love Letters to Pam. Every day I would write just my raw emotions, what I was feeling, what I was going through, and then I would post it. People started picking up on it. A buddy of mine goes, you are on television.
He says, “Why do not you start a podcast and just start instead of just having the letter also talk about it?” I started doing videos, and before I know it, in today’s YouTube world, it’s not that big, but I get a few thousand people watching these videos and commenting, and then they would connect on the other one. I found that it was healing for me to talk about these things. I ended up producing. I looked the other day. The channel is still there, but it’s been rebranded. I now have a playlist of grief videos. The channel now is called Life with Jack and Nicole, which we’ll probably get into later.
There’s a playlist of over 300 grief-shared videos. I still occasionally will do one. Not a lot. I’ll do something. That’s what led to that. These letters, I had a friend of mine in the publishing business. He goes, “You should turn this into a book. This might be good.” I just did not have the strength to do it. I would look back at the letters after, because I kept them for one year. I spent one year always doing the letter. I’m probably jumping ahead, but what evolved into the book was my new wife, which we’ll talk about later.
No, we’re here now. Let’s talk. Who is Nicole? How did we meet? Let’s just jump right in there.
Nicole was going to tell you, was instrumental in actually putting the book together. She took those letters and put them together and had it published. That’s what it looks like. It’s a cool book. It’s called Year 1 of Grief: My first year journey after losing the love of my life. It’s my letters. I would go back and read them now, and I go, “This is actually pretty good stuff.” I’m thinking, “I wish I could have had this book reading it.”
Is the Facebook page still open or is that closed now?
It is, but I do not do much with it anymore. The book, though, can be bought on Amazon. It’s called Year 1 of Grief by me. The YouTube channel, though, is very active. We keep going. You asked about Nicole. I met Nicole. It was about 4 or 5 years later, after I lost Pam, that I met her in church in Phoenix. She was a younger black woman from Kenya. She stood out, and I stood out. I’m like this guy who’s always by himself in church. I saw her in the back of the church by herself, and I said it was a God thing that Sunday. Do you want me to tell you how I met her the first time?
Yes, we need to know.
I saw her back there. I had seen her before, and I’m in my mind going, “I want to go meet her.” It wasn’t anything romantic, anything like that. She’s just like, “I want to meet her.” She’s by herself like me. I want to see what her story is. On that particular Sunday, one of the few Sundays, Pastor Chris decides to come down and talk to me after the service. I’m watching from the back. I’m watching for her. I’m like, really got to get out of here. I want to go meet her. She disappeared. I’m like, “Great.” I go out to this little courtyard area we have. It’s beautiful. There’s cactus and palm trees there.
I sit down in the seat. I’m like, “Thanks, God. I’m really wanting to meet that woman back there.” I said, “I guess I’ll just go play golf again or go hiking, do my usual Sunday thing alone.”Like magic, she comes walking through the garden. I’m like, “I want to meet you.” She goes, “Me?” I said, “Yes.” She had a funny accent. I said, “Where are you from?” She goes, “I’m from Kenya.” I went, “I’m not sure I’ve met anybody from Kenya. Have you been coming to church here for a long time?” She says, “No, this is 3 or 4 times.” I said, “Yes.” I thought I’d say I’m Jack. She says, “I’m Nicole.” I said, “How do you like it here?” She goes, “I’m adjusting to the heat.” I went, “It’s not humid.”
She goes, “Yes, people tell me that.” “What?” I said, “If you get your car, you can go an hour north of here. It’d be 5,000 feet and 30 degrees cooler.” I said, “You should just hop in your car and go to the mountains.” She goes, “I do not have a car.” I’m like, “How do you get to church?” She goes, “I take an Uber.” I’m like, “You do not have to take an Uber. I could give you a ride to church. I come by myself.” She goes, “Really, you do that?” I went. “Sure, where are you?” She used to work in the high-tech world in Kenya, but she came to America with a backpack. She took a job in healthcare.
She lived on site in this high-end healthcare facility, what we call a show home, a really fancy house in Scottsdale that housed about 6 or 7 residents. She worked six days a week, sixteen-hour shifts. She lived on site in a little room there. This is a college-educated woman who used to do tech startups doing this now. She told me where it was. I said, “Look, from now on, I’ll pick you up and bring you. You do not even have to take Uber home. Is there someplace you’d like to go today? Have you seen any of the areas?” She said, “I only have one day off a week.” I said, “Look, have you been to Fashion Square Mall? It’s got like Prada and all these fancy stores and all.” She goes, “No.”
I said, “Would you like to go there today?” She’s like, “You do that?” I said, “Sure, I’ll take you.” She goes, “Look, I’m going to stay there though. You can just drop me off.” I said, “That’s fine. I’ll take you and drop you off.” I did. We both laughed about it now. This woman who just met me gets in the car with some guy. She has no idea who he is. I drove her to Fashion Square Mall. Long story short, every Sunday then I would pick her up. Sunday afternoons, we would have what we called an American adventure. We would go hiking. We would go, so I took her to an Ikea. She thought that was the most unbelievable place she’d ever seen.
It is complicated.
We went on all these adventures. We’d go have lunch, and we’d go on these adventures. I’d get her back so she could sleep and begin her shift and whatever. Over time, I knew something was going on between us. I could feel it. She also had a ten-year-old daughter who was still in Kenya, whom she was working on bringing here. We talked about her a lot. I kept telling her, “You really probably should be with maybe a younger black guy.
I do not know if you ought to be hanging out with me all the time.” I would try and find her a boyfriend. I would try to find her somebody. I finally did find somebody. He would take her out on Sunday night after I took her home, Sunday afternoon. Something, though, clicked in me. After they got together two or three times, I started thinking, “What is this God? I’m not comfortable with her seeing this other guy on Sunday evenings.”
It’s like a repeat. Pam had somebody, and he was like, “No, that’s not going to work.” Now I see Nicole, though. That’s not going to work.
There is a pattern. I called Nicole, “Is there any way you could break off from work for an hour tomorrow morning and we can have breakfast?” She goes, “Okay.” I said, “I’ll pick you up.” We went to this little coffee house. We’re sitting there, and she says, “What’s up?” I said, “Look, I know this is totally wrong. I shouldn’t be with anybody else. I should just be single and alone the rest of my life. I know I’m getting ahead of myself, but you seeing this other guy? It’s not sitting well with me.” She goes, “What do you mean?” She set me up. Now I’m like, “I said, I’m just not that comfortable with it.” She goes, “Why?” I went, All right, fine. I think I fell in love with you. I’m really sorry. I know I shouldn’t do that.” She goes, “Really?” I went, “Yes.”
She goes, I’ve been in love with you for a couple of months now, and you just wanted me to go out with these goofy guys. I did.” We then expressed our love for one another, and we then got married about four months later. Now before we got married, though, I insisted we have premarital counseling with our pastor. It was Pastor Chris, remember, who delayed me getting to meet her. I will never forget the first meeting we had with him. We went in, and I’m still like, this probably isn’t right.
I go into it, me calling Pastor Chris, I go, “Pastor Chris, that’s it. Let me go ahead and tell you. I know this does not look right. I’m older, she’s younger, she’s black, I’m white, she’s Kenyan, I’m American. We do not fit inside the box. We shouldn’t get married.” He just looks at me, and he goes, “You are missing the point, aren’t you?” Nicole’s over there just shaking her head. He goes, “You’re exactly what God wants. He does not want people inside that box. Yes. People may look. They may ask questions. You guys may be different, but you’re showing that love has no boundaries inside a box. Enjoy it. Live your life.” We got married a few months later, and it changed my life. She has been such a blessing.
I’ll say, she says I was a blessing for her. A few months ago, we finally got our daughter here. We moved from Phoenix to Huntsville, Alabama. The reason for that was that Nicole said, “How am I going to get to know your family?” My kids ended up, even though we were raised on the West Coast, they both ended up in Nashville. She says, “I want to get to know your family. I want to know your background. I want to know more about you. I cannot do it if we’re living in Phoenix.” I did not want to leave Phoenix. She was right. We came here. Even what’s funny too, Tina, are friends that Pam and I had over the years. They have become, those couples are our friends now too.
That’s beautiful.
All together. Lexi has just been so. I had a friend of mine, I forget. I started panicking before we got married. My friend Larry, called him in Austin, Texas, “Larry, I do not know though.” I said, “What about this, me being a dad again?” I said, “I just got my kids out of the house, and they’re on their own. Now I’m going to raise a little girl.” He goes, “What else you got to do?” It has been a blessing, and we truly are happy. Are there differences? Yes. They’re also good. It’s just been such an incredible journey.
What it is, too, the message I would have to other people is even though I always thought there was no more room in my heart to love and it would be wrong to love, our hearts are capable of far more than we could ever imagine. Nicole and I both talk about how we were two broken people who came together. Our daughter’s dad basically disappeared when he found out Nicole was pregnant. Nicole put herself, raised her daughter and herself and paid her way through college and did all these amazing things. She’s an incredibly strong woman. She always reminds me so much about the blessings. She’s made me so thankful for what we have. Now she works in ministry at a church.
She didn’t want to, because I had her quit that job where she worked sixteen hours a day, six days a week. She was so scared to quit that job, though, too, because she kept telling me, “What if you’re not around? What if you leave me?” I went, “Baby, that’s not happening.” I said to my family, “I know I had to tell her how my grandparents were both married 60-plus years. My parents are 50-plus years old. I said, “I was married.” I said, “We do not walk out on our wives.” I said, “It’s not going to happen.” When she finally got peace about that, because she’d been so disappointed in life. Her dad left her family when she was a kid.
The guy was the daughter of her husband. He disappeared. She became comfortable with that. She took a year off from work after we got married just to rest and reflect and figure out what she’s going to do with her life. She felt a calling to the ministry. She is now director of preschool curriculum in a church here. She loves it. She’s looking to do more things. We have our daughter with us. I know we’re steering off, but I want to tell you just a quick, simple story about being thankful. The other day, she said the sweetest thing to me. I was like, “Lexi could ride the bus home every now and then, because we’re like a mile from the school.” She goes, “No.” I said, “It’s a pain. You have to go pick her up.” Sometimes I’ll pick her up.
I said, “You know, you could relax. You have to go pick her up.” She goes, “No.” She says, “When I lived in Kenya,” she says, “I can remember when we would go to the school, they would take public transportation.” She’d ride with her, and then she’d go to her office. She’d go, “I thought that was the most beautiful thing.” When I get to see, she says, “Kenya is not a wealthy country, Nairobi.” She goes, “There are some families,” she goes, “I’d see these moms who drove their own car and dropped their child off at school.” She said, and she said, “I want to do that one day. I want to be able to drive my daughter to school and drop her off.”
Just think about that. We, as Americans, do not think about those little things. That’s where she has changed my life so much to appreciate things again. It really is. You never know who’s going to cross your path. I will forget. I used to kid her at first. I said, “I know, I always went to church there hoping I’d find a younger black woman from Kenya.” She’d go, “Actually, I was always thinking I’d find an older rich white man from Scottsdale.” I said, “You got the older guy from Scottsdale, but he sure is not rich.” I’m not. What’s funny about all that, and I know it was in God’s plans.
Remember I mentioned my 97-year-old adopted grandma? She’s passed away. Her name was Lola. Before Lola passed and before I ever met Nicole, Lola told me one day I was visiting her. She goes, “Have you thought about seeing anybody?” I said, “No, Lola, I’m not going to do that.” She goes, “Jack, you’re too young to give up on life right now. You’re way too social to just sit by yourself. Here’s what I’m going to tell you, though. Do not go out there looking for the 48-year-old widower from Chicago that you think is the right match.”
Allowing Love To Unfold Beyond Expectation
“I think God is going to send you someone who is totally different from anything you could ever imagine. Let your heart and mind be open to the possibilities of something different. Also, I want to tell you this. We all loved Pam dearly. You would want this for Pam if it were reversed.” I look back on it now, and I think about that. If I’d been the first one to go, and let’s say Pam had met a younger man from Kenya, but he made her happy, I would say amen and hallelujah to that.
Jack, for the person that’s tuning in to this conversation and the idea of hoping, the idea of life could be different than what they’re doing, and you bumped into them in the grocery store because you got that widowed art going on, what would you tell them?
I would say, always, again, what Lola said, keep your heart and mind open to possibilities. Do not get locked into this box that I did there for a while, that it has got to be this way, that you’re somehow not being loyal to your spouse who you lost if you decide to laugh every now and then, or if you decide to go out for coffee with someone, or if you decide to go beyond a coffee date and have a real date. Now do not rush it. I always tell people, too, not everybody is going to be built to have someone else. You may not read them there, and that’s okay too, but just do not cut yourself off.
Have conversations. Do not be afraid to talk to people. Do not be afraid. That’s funny, though, too. It seemed a lot of women were really apprehensive about even meeting or talking to somebody because they always seem to think the guy has the agenda. I’m sure there are people out there like that. The vast majority of people that I ever met were very nice, very encouraging, and probably got tired of my stories. They let me tell them anyway.
Jack, this has been really good. I try to give my guests an opportunity to be a show’s host. This is probably light work for you, but do you have any questions for me?
I didn’t know. How did you ever find me? You may have told me, but I do not remember. How did I pop up?
It was on YouTube, and seeing the videos and then doing a little bit of research and a little bit of investigation and then finding where you were now.
If you Google my name, a few things do pop up. Most of them are okay. There is that thing. No, we’re not going to get into that.
Also, there are not enough men that I can find willing to share their story and give other men an opportunity to hear what this can look like potentially, and just being able to share the emotional depth of this experience. You were willing to do that, and I wanted to bring your voice to this platform so other men could continue to hear that.
I’m really happy you did this. Leading up to this interview, I told Nicole, I said, “I do not know, do I really want to share these stories again?” She’s like, “No, you should do this.” She is my biggest cheerleader. I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity because you are right. Not enough guys talk about it, or they want to insulate themselves. Guys too, there’s some way to say some of the stupidest things. I never forget one final. I was on a golf course again one time, and this was less than a year after I lost Pam.
I ran into this guy at the golf course, and he’d seen it on television, because again, I was a pretty public figure there, and knew what had happened. He comes up, he goes, “Man, sorry to hear about your old lady.” I went, “Whoa.” I said, “Please do not call her my old lady. Her name was Pam. I loved her dearly.” He goes, “My bad.” He goes, “Do you know one thing, I was thinking about the other day, yes, you can play golf anytime you want now. She’s not here.” I’m like, “You just do not get it, do you?” He goes, “I’ve been divorced.”
I’m like, “No, you do not get it. I’m going to give you some grace.” I told him, “I’m going to give you some grace. You do not understand. Do not say those two things you just said to anybody else that’s ever lost their spouse, whether it’s a man or a woman.” He shook his head and walked away. We all know, and I know you’ve had other guests on, people can say some really stupid things, and sometimes it’s hard to hold your tongue.
We all hear the stupid things. What are some things that you think people can say?
Asking Meaningful Questions To Support Grieving Friends
The one thing I wish people would do, and I do, I know you do it, anybody would meet somebody’s lost somebody is, what was their name? Tell me about them. What did you enjoy? It’s like people always want to avoid talking about the person you lost with those of us who’ve lost them. That’s what we want to do. Ask away. That’s what we want people to do. Talk about them. Do not be scared. We’ll talk about other stuff too. It gives us kind of a gateway. You never know. You may have something in common with my wife.
I would agree. Jack, I want to say thank you for this conversation, and thank Nicole too, since she made this happen. She made the book happen. She made the conversation happen. If you would wrap up this conversation, let the people who have been here with us know more about your book, your YouTube channel, how they can reach out to you, and anything you feel like you want to wrap up this discussion with.
That’s very nice of you to do that. The book, and books are tough. There are so many of them out there. I really would like to see it get into the hands of a few people because, like I said, “On second read, it’s like, this is actually decent.” It’s not because I wrote it, but that’s what it looks like. It’s on Amazon. It’s called Year 1 of Grief: My first year journey after losing the love of my life. It’s by me, and I’m Jack Church. You can get it in paperback or if you have, I think it’s called Kindle Unlimited, you can get it for free on Kindle Unlimited. If you just want to get the, what they call it, the E-version, it’s like $3. It’s not much. That’s really good.
Don't avoid talking about someone who passed. Asking about their name and story brings comfort to those left behind. Share on XThe YouTube channel, as I said, was rebranded. It’s called Life with Jack and Nicole, but there are playlists there. If you go to the playlist, there’s one about the loss of a spouse. The last time I looked, if you want to just get crazy, there are 304 videos I put on there. You can look at those, and you want to see what life’s like between Nicole and me. We’ve done some videos. She does not like to do them as much, but we have, and Alexandra, Lexie, our daughter, we try not to expose her too much, but she’s there. If you want to contact me, I do have an email address that’s set up for that, called TheJackChurchShow@yahoo.com.
That’s the easy way to do it. If all else fails, if you just Google Jack Church widow, stuff will come up. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. I love what you’re doing because it’s a lot of work what you’re doing. My full-time job I’m doing my real job. I wish I had more time to devote to what you’re doing and what we can do, but I just do not. I’m glad there are people out there like you who are helping share these stories. I know that you’re like me. You got out of the hole. You found the light. Would you agree with that?
Absolutely.
I will ask you this, because you have a question. One thing I’ve told people, I’ve said, I think if my wife Pam were to meet Nicole, they would be the best of friends. I just see that in them. I’m wondering, how about you?
Yes, and that at first seemed really odd to me. I was like, in a different time zone, a different connection. I could see the similarities that they have that they would enjoy each other’s company. They have similar interests. What was super. Just blew my mind. My current husband, his middle name is my late husband’s first name.
What is that?
Mark. When he told me his middle name, I was like, “I’m going to have to breathe for a second. I’m going to need to take this in and understand what’s going on here.” There was a sense of assurance in that.
It’s funny you say that because Nicole and I just were talking about hers and Pam’s birthdays are both in May. Nicole, my daughter from my first marriage, her daughter’s middle name is Nicole. As you know, there are these. I do not think they’re just chance things.
I know they’re affirmations because I wondered. I was like, “If I were to get married or to date, how does that work after being with this man for 32 years? How will someone else become the best person in my life?” It’s just been so seamless. It wasn’t even an effort. There were a lot of send back to the sea things going on. They weren’t a good match, but from the moment I met Fred, I was like, “This feels like home.”
I was like, “Have you been alone too long? I need you to check yourself what’s going on.” I was like, “I need to reel this in.” It is now 7 or 8 years later, and it still feels like home. I could not have imagined. I thought if I had been in another relationship, it’d be like we’re more friends. At this level, I feel like I love Fred in a different way than I loved Mark because I know how precious life is. I know how short it can be, so I would probably say I love him more than I did because of what I’ve learned. I’m a better wife from what I learned being married to Mark and bringing that into this relationship.
That’s powerful. I think too, I was telling Nicole the other day, one thing too, I feel like given a second chance on this being a dad part, I’m doing better on that, because I had some training, and on the marriage side, it’s unique too in the fact that Nicole’s a good bit younger than me. People that look us up will see that. We talk about how I’m on the tail end of my professional career. I’ll do other things.
She’s mid-career and heading up, but that’s also been fun to watch, because she’ll ask me a lot of questions about things. She goes, “You’ve been there, had the life experience.” That’s fun too. The differences have challenges, but they’re good too. She levels me. She levels me so well. I will say too, that’s where she’s a little stronger than Pam. I can push Pam around a little bit. No, not pushing Nicole around.
We need to have a conversation with Nicole about dating a widower. I’m going to see how that could go.
She may have some tips.
Ask her.
We can be in touch. See how that goes. She might have popped through, but she’s staying out of the way right now.
Thank you so much for this time, and I’ll let you give the closing comments in this conversation.
It’s just been an incredible pleasure, and I do hope that people out there have heard us say that while it does seem really dark for you, maybe there is light. They do not say there’s light at the end of the tunnel. I do not like the part that it’s not the end of the tunnel, but there’s just light outside that darkness. There’s always the joke about walking towards the light. I would say in this case, definitely walk towards the light because it’s not the end.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Important Links
- Jack Church on LinkedIn
- Life with Jack and Nicole on YouTube
- Life with Jack and Nicole on YouTube Playlist
- Year 1 of Grief: My first year journey after losing the love of my life
- TheJackChurchShow@yahoo.com
About Jack Church
Jack Church is a former television meteorologist turned public affairs manager for K-LOVE Radio, where he also hosts the talk show Closer Look. After the loss of his first wife, Pam, in 2019, Jack began documenting his grief journey through daily letters later compiled into his book, Year One of Grief, available in print and eBook on Amazon.
In the years since, Jack has found love again and is now married to his wife, Nicole. Together, they share their life on their YouTube channel, Life with Jack and Nicole, where Jack offers grief support through a dedicated video playlist while also highlighting their shared experiences in travel, cooking, and everyday life.
Jack is the father of two adult children from his first marriage, and he and Nicole are raising their 12-year-old daughter. Through his personal story of loss, healing, and hope, Jack encourages others to navigate grief with honesty, faith, and the possibility of new beginnings.
