When people go through grief, they often handle it so self-consciously that it becomes a performance-based experience. They tend to “check off boxes” of how the grieving journey is supposed to look. Tina Fornwald discusses the importance of honoring one’s own timeline for release and healing with Dannie D. He reflects on how he addresses the stigma around Black males crying and showing emotions when grieving, as well as the negative perspectives around going to therapy. Dannie D. also opened up about his experience as a widower after the death of his partner Dale, who passed away from a heart attack at age 50.
I am sharing my experience of loving the same man for 32 years, a mother to two adult children, a retired military officer, a breast cancer survivor, and my connections with others.
Anyone experiencing suicidal thoughts should reach out to a suicide hotline or local emergency number in their country: Psychology Today Suicide Hotlines and Prevention Resources Around the World.
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Grief, Love, Moving Forward After Loving Larry With Dannie D.
Widowhood, what do you do when you are a trained mental health professional, and your person dies? How do you manage the mental health side and the I am the griever side? How do they work together? This conversation and more are going to be answered in this conversation with Dannie D as he talks about the love of his life and what life looks like now. Let us get into this discussion.
Dannie, welcome to the Widowhood.
I am surprised.
When you hear, “Welcome to the Widowhood,” what comes to mind first? Like no bars, no holding back, no social media, no bad words to not say. What comes to your mind when you hear that?
I like just the sound of it. It makes me feel like I am in this environment where there are flowers and dewdrops and falls and springs. All of these wonderful things make me feel comfortable.
I hear community and connection, and I am not alone. Most people may not understand why you feel that way when you hear that word. Why does it bring you comfort?
I am at a place in my life where I have done all the things that I wanted to do, or I should say set out to do. I was a professional dancer. I said I wanted to be a professional dancer when I was about 2 or 3 or 4. I was a little bit older, maybe like four. I did that. I became a choreographer. I became a teacher. I became a clinician. I am licensed, and I bought property. I have done all the things. It allows me time to really settle into who I am and identify what is around me. I am a big proponent of mindfulness and implementing self-care practices within your daily routine. I find myself in this present moment a lot of times in life.
Let me ask a different question. Who is not here in your life that has brought us to this conversation?
Dale. You will respect me calling him Dale. I like Larry. Larry is a much better name for me.
We are going to get into that. I need to know, so now you got me with my nose hat out.
Dale Miller. It was very interesting because I was not in a place to actually meet anybody. I was just not mentally or physically prepared. I was going through some illnesses and just transitions in general. This was prior to my injury, and I was still trying to figure out who I am, as a person, as an individual, my identity. All of those different things because I was a dancer, and that is who I was, that was it. Hold on for a second.
Not just a dancer, I mean, drop some of these things that you have done, the places you went to school. Dancing would be like Tina saying, “She was dancing.” No. As a professional, can you elaborate on that for the scholars in the dance world so they can understand who you are and what you have done?
I always say that Debbie Allen is my unofficial first dance teacher because I started watching Fame, the TV series. I had not seen the movie yet. I started watching Fame, the TV series. I saw Leroy, and I was like, “Wait a minute,” because I had seen dance before. I had not seen dance with people who looked like me, which is a good reason why presentation matters. I saw Leroy, and I was like, “I can do that.” I was like, “Wait, no, I want to do that.”
For years, I just sort of watched Fame, put on my sister’s leg warmers. I was just emulating, mimicking what was going on on TV. I would sit in what we call the center splits, which is your legs wide open in a second position. I would just sit there and watch the show. Eventually, I went to a performing arts school called San Diego School of Creative and Performing Arts. I met my dance mentor there, Mr. Donald Robinson, who is still my mentor to this day. I call him my dance dad, and he pushed me in directions that I had no idea I was capable of going in.
From there, I graduated, and I went to the Alvin Ailey Academy, or Alvin Ailey Dance School, and then I got bumped up into a position where I was able to actually perform. I had a little bit of a nervous breakdown just because of the culture shock moving from California to New York. It is a completely different experience. I ended up coming back home for a little bit. I went to Colorado and danced with Cleo Parker Robinson, and traveled a lot with that company around the world.
I moved to LA, and I danced with Lula Washington. Again, I traveled around the country. I moved to Dayton, Ohio, where I danced with the Dayton Contemporary Dance Company, which is where I found my footing. No pun intended. I really found my footing. I found my footing there, and I was able to come into my own within that company. Towards the end of the company, right before my retirement, I was able to be named one of the 25 dancers to watch in Dance Magazine.
It was the first time that they had actually started to do that, to provide that honor for people. I had no idea what that was and how big a deal it was. I was like, “I am retiring. I do not know, whatever.” Right before that, I got a nice write up in the New York Times by Anna Kisselgoff, who was like, she was a dance critic in New York. Some really cool things happened in my career. I knew I wanted to dance, and I was honored to be able to do it for the amount of time that I was able to do it for them.
When you look back, does it look like someone else’s life, or do you remember all, and they go like, “That was me, or that is me, a part of who you are?
I wish I were there yet. I am not there yet, because when I look at myself, I see trauma. Not trauma in the sense that it is incapacitating for me. It is more so, I look at it, and I go, “This is when that injury happened. This is when that happened.” Sometimes this is some good stuff too. This is the moment where my friend Veronica and I really connected, and things like that. I always tell people when they ask me if I miss dance, I always say, I miss the community, kind of what we were talking about earlier.
I miss the community, the building of relationships, and the rapport in meeting new people. I have a couple of like, I call them my dance wives, that I still think I am in connection with because you build a deeper connection than any connection that you could ever have because not only are you emotionally involved, but you’re physically connected to this person that you’re dancing with this entire time. It is a beautiful thing.
Dancing will allow you to build a deeper connection than any connection you could ever. You are not only emotionally involved, but also physically connected. Share on XLeveling Up Even After A Major Setback
Do you want to elaborate about the accident?
I was supposed to be retired, as I mentioned. I came back to California in 2004, and I retired. It’s like Cher and all these people. They retire, and then they come out of retirement. People were calling me that. I was dancing with my home ballet company, California Ballet. They were asking me to do the Nutcracker, and I did a couple of other shows, like a spring show, a spring show and then a Nutcracker. I was dancing a section of the Nutcracker called Arabian, which is a whole other thing. That is a whole cultural appropriation.
It is just a whole mess, but we will not get into that today, because I want this whole conversation. I remember earlier I was dancing Chinese, and I felt a little pinch on the back of my heel. Did not really think anything of it, because throughout my entire career, I have never had an injury. I have never had an injury before, so I did not know what it was supposed to feel like. I came back from lunch, and then we were doing the evening performance, getting through the entire first act, getting through the second act, and we were coming out for the finale.
I go up for a big jump, which is called a grand jeté. I came down on the floor, and it felt like I tripped, and I am like, “Huh.” I try to get back up, and I fall back down into the ground again, because my Achilles ruptured at that point, which I did not know. I just thought I had broken my ankle because I looked up at my foot and it was just dangling there. I am like, “Yeah, I just broke my ankle.” The best part about that whole evening was that I went to the emergency room, and I walked in, I am wearing a two-piece gold lamé outfit, mind you.
Yes, a two-piece gold lamé outfit. I have liked the big one, because I am bald, and so I usually put the band on the head, the little feather. I am wearing that. I get wheeled in because I cannot walk, so I am wheeled in, and the nurses at triage were like, “We don’t know what’s going on here, but you’re coming back right away.” It was filled with people, filled with people. They are like, “No, we’re bringing you back right away.” We need to understand what all of this is happening here.
You just got leveled up right there.
There were students there who had never seen an Achilles rupture before. I was in the hallway, and they were squeezing my calf. I was like, “Who are you, people? Why are you touching me?” They’re like, “We’re just interns, and we’ve never seen a rupture before.” I was like, “I’m not a guinea pig, so like stop touching me.” It was a whirlwind night. It took me about a year in its entirety for me to heal. Six months to get back to some mobility. That is a time when I knew that I had, like, “I was done with dancing, and I went back to school and got my psychology degree while I was in bed.”
Done with dancing physically, but what about your heart and your soul?
I was done with my heart and my soul too because, and I knew this because when the surgeon asked me what I wanted to do after the surgery, my response was, “I just want to walk.” A dancer would have said, “I need to get back up on stage. I need to,” like that. I knew that was not who I was.
That is profound because there are moments in life that are transitional, and we have the choice to take one path or the other. It seems as if the path you took serves you well.
It did. There are some bumps in the road. I do not want to say bumps, but there were some sidetracks, I guess I should say. I did try to do a dance thing again. I tried to go back to school and get my Master’s in Fine Arts. While I was there, I was so concentrated and fixated on the mental health components that I could not even write about dance. I remember one of my professors pulled me to the side, and she said, “Are you sure you want to get your Master’s degree in Fine Arts?” I was like, “I don’t think so.” I was like, “I’m going to go and do an MSW.” I settled on my MSW, Master’s in Social Work.
I am still going to stay firm with that. The decision you made in the hospital served you well. It was a need for confirmation because sometimes it is easy to go back to what we have done before, versus moving forward into the new opportunity and new way life has taken us. Life was still saying, “No, go with the decision you made from the beginning.”
Yeah, for sure. I am really happy that I made that decision because it did. It allowed me to really meet myself because, as I mentioned earlier, about the dancer piece, it is like that was my identity. My identity was a dancer. People knew me as Dannie the dancer. I was like, “Cool.” At first, I was like, “That’s who I am, and that’s what I do.” When I went back to school, I was challenged to think about what my other identities were. I was not even saying like, Black.
I was not even saying I was a part of the LGBT community. I was not even saying a son. I was not saying, brother. I was not even labeling those identities upon myself because I was so immersed. Just being the dancer piece of it, I was like, “I don’t even know who I am.” One of the first assignments that we did in school was asking, “Who are you?” I was like, “I don’t know, because I’m not a dancer anymore. I have no idea who I am.”
Who is Dannie now? The question comes, who is Dannie D?
Dannie D is a son. Dannie D is a brother. Dannie D is a puppy father. A puppy father. People always say that I have my mom and a lot of other people who have multiple children, just because I worked at the residential facility. They are all my kids at the time. I am a Black, prominent male, especially in a field that is dominated by white females. It allowed me to really identify my purpose in being where I am and who I am, identifying my privilege of being able to be in a room and provide context about someone who is professional and someone who is not, falling in that stereotypical track that people would typically say about who a black man is.
Why Men Are Pressured Not To Cry
Thank you. Knowing your level of knowledge clinically as it relates to mental health. I am curious why you wanted to have this conversation and why you think it is important.
It is important, one, because as Black males, and a lot of my clients who are drawn to me are Black males, and I am so proud of them. I tell them that, initially, the first hour of a session, I am like, “I am very proud of you for even coming and showing up.” There is a stigma in the community for males in general, but in particular for Black males, to not really focus on our mental health.
Also, not to grieve and mourn. Like, “Why are you crying?” It is one of those things that you are taught at an early age. Men do not cry. I remember crying for my brother. My brother passed away when I was about four. I was about five. That was the last time I had cried for years until my dad died on my 21st birthday. I cried again. From that point, I just cry all the time now.
Thank you for sharing that. For the men that are tuning in to this conversation, and it has triggered something: I was told not to cry, but yet I have experienced profound trauma, and I only let it out of the box two or three times. What is that doing to a person’s body?
We are being taught to compartmentalize. We are being taught to put these things in different places and different boxes. Sometimes you just throw them away and cover them up, bury them, whatever that is for you. It causes illnesses if we are not processing our trauma or just having conversations about it. It causes this internal turmoil, which causes sickness for a lot of people. I used to do a somatic class, and we would just talk about it.
We would do body scanning in the class, and we would figure out where we are holding our trauma. I was like, “Where’s your pain right now?” They’re like, “My back hurts, my stomach.” I was like, “We’re going to focus on that area right now, because that’s where you’re holding your trauma,” because it becomes a physical manifestation at times for people.
That is so true. How did you meet Dale, Larry, and DL? I do not know what I am going to call him, or how we are going to do this. Before that, I have a question. You mentioned all the things that you have accomplished in life and been able to do. Do those things even matter at this big old age when we think about what is important to us in life?
Not really. It is like I have never been one to boast and to brag about my accomplishments and things like that. I heard that I was like, “I’m the Michelle of Destiny’s Child.”
Michelle, listen to this conversation.
I am saying, “Michelle is a better singer, and all that stuff.” She is a better vocalist. Michelle is like, “You know what? I know my worth.” I always felt, especially around people who I know need a little bit more. Like, “I do not need attention.”I can pull back.
The accomplishments are fine, but at this point in life, do those things have as much value as they seemed when we were younger, compared to what is really important now for you? I should have phrased it that way.
I guess just a no, in a sense, because it is like, I mean, you definitely want to make sure that you are honoring what it is that you set out to do.
You lived your life.
Those are your goals, but I felt like the importance is a little bit different, just because it is like it is a first-world problem. For a second spiritual problem, we’re like, “I bought property and everything, that’s great and dandy.” I am not going to be sitting and bragging about that piece of stuff because I am like, there are other things that I need to focus on right now.
“I’m going to get you. We will not go there because we will not go back.”
I was not even going to go there because we were not going back. That is the point I wanted to make. This is why I went on to social media, and Dale was a big reason why.
How Dannie Met Dale
How did you and Dale meet?
It was a setup. It was a blind date because I had never seen him before. He walks in, and I look, and I am like, “Absolutely not.” I mean, because typically, I did not date men with less melanin. He was like the picture boy of it. It was like blonde hair, blue eyes. We started talking and were just cool people. Really changed my perspective on it. I still give them side-eye every now and then because I am like, “Why are you so white?”
I am going to say you ought to get there with those glasses today, but go ahead.
This is dead. He was like, “This way.” He was able to really assimilate what it’s like in my lifestyle, my friends, my family, my mom, which is a huge, huge deal, a huge accomplishment. It made it a lot easier for me to see past that piece of it for him because I was able to see within his soul. He is a beautiful soul.
How long before you said Dale was your person?
I knew that day that he was my person. I did. I knew that day. We talked for about seven hours. We actually got kicked out of the place that we were at. We were at a coffee shop. We were just texting after that for another three or four hours. I knew that day that I was in love with this person, that I was in love with Dale.
What did you tell the person who, how dare they set you up, and did it? Did you ever tell them? Have they been vindicated, or is that still something that you have? What does that look like?
She did not know, because I did not even say anything to her, because after I knew that this was my person, I was like, “She did well.”
She is going to listen to this conversation and say, “You doubted me? I knew you.” Fran, you did well, Fran.
People know me because I have known her for quite some time. She definitely knows who I like and what I like. It was a wildcard just because of the lack of glasses.
When you say you’re in love, what are some things that you remember most about Dale? Things that make you laugh, things about who he was.
The biggest thing for me was that he allowed me to be me. I have been in relationships before where the person comes in and wants to change things about you. One of the biggest things in my sessions is not trying to change a person. We are just trying to teach them how to treat you. That is what that person is going to be able to do. You are providing a manual and some skills to say, “Based off of negotiables and non-negotiables and your core beliefs and your values, this is what we do for people.” He allowed me to continue to be me, and I felt safe.
Being loved well changes who we are. What would you say to that?
My attachment style is avoidant.
Looks like a runaway Brad type.
I do not want to use that word, but I do. I like to close off a little bit at times. He was more, I guess it was a little bit more secure attachment for him. Again, he was very open and able to communicate his needs adequately and all that. He was able to see when I was in one of my, he called them one of my moods. He would make my go-go juice. We watched the Honey Boo Boo show back in the day, I think it was like the Toddlers & Tiaras or something like that, and then she got her own show.
She would drink this juice, and then she would be all wired afterwards. He would make me this juice, and it was honey, lemon, and water. Really simple, and it would just make me. It made my stomach feel better. This is when I had ulcers and all this stuff going on for me. He was able to just see who I was and help out and provide me with support.
Four Different Types Of Attachment Styles
Thank you. Just for people tuning in, you mentioned attachment styles. You want to run through what those are, so people have an idea of that. Everyone may not be aware of what that means.
Attachment styles, there are four of them. There is secure attachment, there is anxiety, and then there is avoidant, and then there is disorganisation. Your attachment styles are based off of your relationship with your caregiver. Everybody wants to be secure. Unfortunately, most of us are not. The attachment styles do not make you a bad person. People are like, “I’m disorganized.” That is just based off of your upbringing, your environment, and your relationship with your primary caregiver.
Attachment styles do not make you a bad person. They are just based on your upbringing, environment, and relationship with your primary caregiver. Share on XIt just allows people to have a better understanding of how to engage and interact with people with those different styles, especially if you have an anxious and avoidant, which is typically the attraction that people get, that anxious and avoidant, where the avoidant closes off, and the anxious is super anxious and has anxiety because, like, “Why are you closing off?” They close off more, and it just keeps becoming a dynamic completely overbearing for both of them.
There is a super uncomfortable feeling from the person who is more avoidant. There is the anxious, like I said, that super hyper anxiety happening from the person who is that anxious judgment. It is just really understanding what those attachment styles are, love languages as well, and how to interact and engage with that person out of love.
Let us get into the Dale-Larry thing. What are we doing there? What does that mean? I need some tea, I need the backstory. I need to know why we do not know which one we are doing.
He is named after his father. Larry Dale Miller. This is his full name. He is named after his father. He does not like his father, and they have a horrible relationship. He did not want to be connected with that name. I like Larry better. I would call him Larry, and he responded to it, obviously, while we’re around each other. In public, I would respect his wishes and call him Dale.
I have a side question for the mental health side of Dannie D. Do you find that people, on average, from the top of your head or statistics, have more unsettling, bad relationships with their mother or father when you look at people overall, or is it equal? I feel like I hear more dad trauma, but I do not know.
It depends on the gender as well. No, I need to pay attention a little bit more. It does vary. My gay males typically have daddy issues, but then there is also some mommy stuff as well. Typically, there is a dad disconnection piece, and the mom is like the primary caregiver for them. It just, I mean, it varies based off of my particular clientele.
That’s fair. Going back to love, allowing ourselves to grieve, allowing ourselves to cry, for men, how have you managed your grief from Dannie the person missing Larry Dale versus Dannie the mental health professional?
Just a little backstory, a little more context, I should say. I was thinking about this this morning, and something I am going to talk about in therapy when I do therapy next week. I realized that the most prominent and important men in my life have passed away. My brother passed away, as I mentioned earlier, he passed away. He was my idol. One of the reasons why I started dancing, I saw him doing The Wiz on stage, and I was like, “What is this?” It was like I had never seen anything like that before. He played the Scarecrow, the Michael Jackson role in The Wiz.
That was the first play my dad ever took us to in Chicago to see The Wiz live. I was just like, “What?”
I know. I had not even seen the movie, and I do not know if the movie was out.
That was years later.
The movie was, because the movie came out in the ‘70s, but I had not seen the movie yet. I just remember seeing him, and I was like, I did not understand what was going on. I was like, “I want to get up and dance, and I want to sing. I want to do it.” I was like, “I don’t know anything, but I want to do all the things.” My brother passed away, my dad passed away, Larry passed away, my godfather passed away, and one of my mentors passed away. There are all of these prominent men in my life who have passed away. It was always like this fear for me that Larry would pass away. This was the first time that we met, he is like, “When I’m 50, I’m going to die.” I was like, “That’s silly.”
How old was he then when you guys met?
He was 40. He was like 42. He was 40 because I was 38. I was like, “That does not even make any sense.” I grew up Christian, and I was like, “I don’t believe in psychics because it’s bad.” I was talking about psychics. I do not believe in psychics. That is not real. We would joke about it all the time. I was like, “Guess whose birthday is coming up?” It was this whole thing. He died on his birthday from a heart attack, which is what he said. I am sorry, I keep saying on his birthday. It was not on his birthday. He died at 50, but not on his birthday.
What year was that, Dannie?
I am trying to remember when I got back on when I got on to talk because it was like 2018.
What were you guys doing when he had the heart attack, or where were you?
He was doing some work in LA. He is an interior designer. He was doing some work in Los Angeles. I was back home, and we always communicated frequently, even when he was working. He would just text me randomly or whatever. I had not gotten a text from him for a full day or any communication at all for a full day. I got a phone call from his sister that he had died. I am like, “What?” I am like, “I just talked to him.” I kept saying that over and over again and started crying.
I started crying because she was the only person in his life that he actually cared about. Besides me, family-wise. It was such disbelief. It was also like, I was also going like, he said that he was going to die from a heart attack in his 50s. She knew this as well. It was very difficult for me to make it make sense and to make it be real because it just did not seem real at all.
I got angry because I was like, “Why would you leave me here?” I got sad again. I am just basically going through the stages of grief. I went through them really quickly. I got acceptance at one point because I went back to what he said. I was like, “He did say that he was going to die from a heart attack in the 50s. Here we are.” We had conversations about what to do and what he would want me to do after his death.
Again, they were like silly conversations because I was like, “You’re not going to die, that’s dumb.” He is like, “I want you to move on. I want you to meet people.” All these things that you’re supposed to say. I am thinking about it again. I cried then. That was the only time that I cried about it. Now that I am thinking about it and putting it together. That was the only time when he and his sister were on the phone, and that is the only time that I cried about it.
Why Crying Is Important In Experiencing Grief
Why is the idea of crying so important? Some people are not crying, and some people are. Is it the crying or is it the release? Which should people look to, or do you look to in your own grieving process?
I feel like the release is more important than the crying because I often equate crying to words that we cannot really express. It is not always about the mourning process, but just about like, “I don’t know what to say.” Now the tears are starting to come down at a certain point. I do feel like the release is the most important part. I know what that feels like with a cry. I know what the release feels like with a cry. That has happened three times. This happened with my brother, my dad, and then with Larry Dale.
When people are supporting someone who is grieving, and they are saying, “I’ve never seen them cry. I’m not sure if they’re sad.” What would you say to that statement?
People grieve in different ways. If you really understand and think about the stages of grief, we will see people react in completely different ways. Sometimes people intellectualize what is going on when they go into this role of, “I’m going to start working on programs, I’m going to start getting everything done for the funeral.” They go into different roles, and everyone has their role in that. We need to, as a society, stop judging people based on what we would do and how we would react to a situation, because you do not know. You do not even know how you are going to react because it is not your situation.
As a society, we need to stop judging people based on what we would do and how we would react to a grieving person. Share on XHow has grief surprised you compared to what you thought from your intellectual part for you personally?
As I mentioned earlier, there was one who wanted me to go. He is really the only reason why I went on TikTok because he is like, “I was a Twitter person.” Twitter was Twitter back in the day. I think like maybe 500,000 followers before the whole takeover and all this stuff. He was like, “You’re really funny. You should do videos.” I was like, “That means I have to wake up and do my face and put on some clothes, and I’m presentable on a video.” I went to TikTok, and I was like, “You don’t have to be presentable on a video.”
I just saw those videos where your face was done. I’m like, “Did I miss that?”
I do not purposefully do that a lot. It was more of an homage to him when we moved over to TikTok, and then it just evolved into this whole thing that is whatever it is right now. I did it, it was a part of my grieving process, because I wanted to make sure that I am honoring what he felt like, because he is like, “You’re funny, and you can dance and do all the things.”
YouTube, also, I will say, but I mean not just on TT, but you are on YT also.
I am on YouTube and Instagram as well, which feeds into Facebook, which I did not know. I was like, “Wow.” Facebook sent me a notification about paying me, and I’m like, “What?” Your Instagram feeds to Facebook, that is all.
That is all in there. What is the thing that holds you back from grief impacting you?
I know I need to function because it is just me. I feel like it is going to be in my therapy session. I feel like I have yet to fully grieve. I say that because I am still, and this is what I work on with my clients all the time. I am still anchored. My emotions are still tethered to that relationship. Although I know that he is no longer here and the relationship is no longer going to be what it was, because he is not here, I am still tethered, and I do this comparison thing again. If I teach my clients, I do the comparison. I’m like, “Hmm.”
You say comparison is somebody potentially new.
Someone new. It makes it difficult for me. I am in a relationship right now. If he does hear this, just know that I am going to therapy.
Did he have glasses, or is he melanated? What do we have? What are we working with right now?
Eyeglasses.
There are some similarities. We like who we like. It is not like trying to, this is from my perspective. It is not trying to replicate. It is just that we have a type that we are comfortable with, and that makes us feel comfortable. Understanding the difference between those two, I think, is the heavy lifting.
Correct, that has been the problem because we have connected, and I have connected a couple of times. That has been the problem for me, which is making sure that I am disconnecting the two. Just because there are similarities does not mean that they are the same.
Detachment Of The Emotional Connection
What is the thing you have not said about your grief?
I have not talked about this. This is the first time that I am talking about it outside of therapy, because I started therapy. I started therapy not too long ago. We glossed over this, but I definitely want to make sure that I am delving more into the situation. When I started therapy, I was talking more about work, and how it was just not fun nonstop, but this is a little bit more prevalent. It is going to allow me to be able to move forward, and even put into practice what I am teaching my clients, to be able to unanchor those feelings and emotions so that they are memories and not just like constant tugging and attachment to that relationship.
Is it possible for the attachment and moving forward to happen in a duality? Does one have to become detached from their loved one, or do they put that love in a different space?
I do feel like there needs to be the detachment of the emotional connection, because it does make it challenging to move forward and really give those feelings and emotions to another person, not the same feelings and emotions, because you are always going to have love and care for that person with you. If we are leaning into, as mentioned earlier, the comparison piece, “This is not the same,” or “I wish this were a little bit more like this,” then it makes it a little bit more challenging for you to move forward.
There needs to be a detachment of the emotional connection to move forward and give your feelings and emotions to another person. Share on XGathering The Courage To Talk About Grief
I can see that being one who was widowed. I will always consider myself my late husband’s widow. Who was as white as those glasses that you are wearing? We were together for 32 years. When I was in a place to date and eventually got remarried, it was very important for me to also understand what my likes and dislikes were versus what I was comparing someone else to, because it is not fair to them. As we are having your pre-therapy session and I will not charge you for it, you and I connected on TikTok, and you mentioned you have not spoken about this out loud. What made this the moment and this platform to do that?
You asked me, and no one has ever really asked me about it. I was like, “Yeah.” The timing as well, because I felt we connected before. Even then, I think I said, “Yeah,” or “I would get back to you.” I think I said something like that, and I was not ready then.
A year later. By the way, I am not counting, but I am just saying, go ahead.
I was not ready then. When you reached out again, you’re like, “By the way, one year later,” I said, “Yeah.” I was like, “I do want to talk about this.” Also, I felt like I had completed the last goal of my original set of goals, which was to buy a property. That section of my life was complete. Now I am able to move forward and jump over that hurdle.
You said something really important about you not being ready then. I want you to talk about how important it is that everybody’s timeline with grief is different, and knowing when we are ready to do things, and sometimes when we are not. It’s because the outside voices can, because they are uncomfortable with what it looks like, and they are trying to push you, “I think you should be doing this,” you are going, “I am not ready.” What is your perspective, Dannie the griever first?
That is exactly what I mean, that is what we talk about in mental health. It’s like we do not give people things to do. We are working in a collaborative manner, and when they are ready to start those next steps, we are encouraging people to take those next steps. It is this bad, it’s like, you have this feeling of like, “I’m ready.” It is almost like this feeling of surrender, where I did feel this release, as we mentioned earlier, of almost letting go and being able to move forward.
How Grief Changed Dannie’s Approach To Providing Services
How has your grief changed how you provide services and mental health to other people?
I feel like initially I would not take people who are grieving because I was like, “I am so rude.” Now it is a little bit different because I have a different perspective on it, because I am on the other side of it. I did not want to do any of that parallel processing, especially with the grief, because you can fall right back into it, especially if you are in those moments of vulnerability and you are feeling raw. It is easy to just spiral back into some of those emotions.
As I said, I feel like I am over the hump. I can do that a little bit better. I can see from a bird’s-eye view and find a perspective and allow space, patience, and timing for that individual to be able to process what it is that they want to process with me. If they do not, sometimes we just sit there. We just sit in silence, and I am like, “When you’re ready, we can talk about whatever it is that you want to talk about.”
Have there been any epiphanies, being actually in this versus what you had studied or learned all this time, for you, and actually in this grief?
That is an interesting question because I read these things. If I am looking for a diagnosis for one of my clients, I am like, “Boom, boom.” It is typically a textbook, and you are like, “How is this possible?” It’s like, because this is what people do. People do research, and they study, and they know things, which is why you get a diagnosis. I do feel like it was pretty textbook for me, no surprises that stood out to where I was like, “I had no idea this is what we fulfill.” It feels exactly the way that it is portrayed. Whether you see it in movies, whether you are reading it in a book or an article, it feels exact for me. It feels exactly as it is being portrayed.
I am curious if I have the numbers right. We are seven years from the time that Dale took his last breath. What did the first year of functioning look like for you?
I went into more of the intellectualizing piece.
I do not know why I am not supposed to.
I did. I was watching, I started re-watching Desperate Housewives, and I was like, looking at the Bree character, the redhead there, and I was like, “That’s me.” The way that she portrayed, just all the things. It did. I just continued to do what I was doing. I was trying to honor, and as I said, I created the TikTok and things like that. That is where I put it. Definitely checking off all the boxes and making sure things were the way that they are supposed to be.
Has it been seven years? When you say you do not feel like you have fully grieved because you have been performance-based in your grief?
Yeah, it is, and just the previous. It also makes more sense for the previous question, too, where it’s like, “It feels exactly the way it’s supposed to feel.” It’s like, I feel like I have not grieved and processed this. Again, this is the first time that I am really talking about it. As I tell my clients, the more you talk about it, the more that you write it down, the more that you draw it. I just put it in a box. I did. I put it in the box. I go like, “It’s the anniversary, and let me do a video and let me do the things that I’m supposed to do,” all the things that I am supposed to do in order to breathe. I need to do a little bit more. Checking off boxes because I am Bree from Desperate Housewives.
Is there any fear that when you give yourself to this, you cannot retract, Dannie? Because it is fair to say it would not just be Dale that you are grieving. It is your brother at five and your dad at 21, your mentors. We are just discussing grief as it relates to someone leaving this world, not the grief of the Achilles heel, the grief of all the other life-traumatic types. Is it a protective mechanism to not allow ourselves to take that wrongness? I do not know, Dannie will be able to get up from that, and this is safe, or what would you say to that? I am just a bunch of who we.
That is exactly what it is. I feel like if I do go there completely, I am going to fall apart and not be able to pick myself back up. A lot of times, I feel like it is just me, really doing this on my own, although I do have support systems. I have great friends and family in place, but I often feel like it is just me doing this on my own, or I feel like it has to be, let me rephrase that, it has to be me doing this all on my own. That is another thing I am going to be putting in my therapy box.
Would you just like me to send them the video, or how?
Yes, just send them the video so we can get on with it.
To your point, and I am grateful for your trusting me with this conversation. I mean, you and I may have some banter, but I know this is not something you did lightly. You are very protective of who is going to hold your voice for a lot of different reasons. Who is going to respect your story, your love? Being a Black male in the LGBT community, that is not something that is like brushed over because there is also a part of that, disenfranchised grief, where you know people do not respect that or say that this love has value. To bring this, I respect that and I appreciate the trust. In the idea that we also do not do that, that is an important thing that I found.
Grieving Is Your Own Process
That people start having survival patterns. They are things that we start off doing, but after a while, we feel like they are no longer serving us. I often hear people say, “I feel like I’m stuck in my grief because the survival patterns have held, but they’ve not allowed us. The grief hasn’t continued to move,” as you mentioned, moving forward. That is difficult because there is more release that we want to continue living. If someone, your clients, therapists, or a friend, would tune in to this conversation, what would you want them to take away from this?
Grieving is your own process, and listening to other people telling you how to grieve is counterproductive. Truly understanding what your grief is and how you are going to grieve is probably the most important factor. As I realized that I have not properly grieved, I checked off boxes of what grief is supposed to look like. Again, as I mentioned earlier, it’s talking about it, processing it, in some sort of way, whether when you’re journaling, you’re going to your therapist, however it is you need to get this out, like it has to come out in some way, so that you can start the handling process.
How Tina Handles Her Own Grieving Journey
I try to allow my guests to be the podcast host. This will be interesting. Do you have any mental health issues, Mr. Man have any questions for me?
Let us see. First husband.
Can you see the statue over there?
It really does not matter, then it does matter at the same time, just because of the connectability piece that happens sometimes. For me with Dale, that was the biggest fear, was the connectability and being able to me being able to say like, “Eartha Kitt,” and you not going, “Who’s Eartha Kitt?” because that offends me to my very core nature. I had an experience where I met Eartha Kitt in New York. This is around the time the Boomerang movie came out. We went to Brooklyn, and she was in the kitchen cooking fried chicken. I walked in, and I was like, “That’s Eartha Kitt.”
I was like, so I can like “Do not be weird.”
Just chill out and just sit down on the couch and like, “This fried chicken is good.” I did the latter. I was just chill about it, of course. You didn’t know who Eartha Kitt was. I was like, “I don’t get it.” I was like, “At least I know Catwoman,” because he’s of a certain age as well, too. You should know. I was like, “She was like the first black Catwoman.” Like, “You got to know. I mean, come on, you got it.” Out of all the things, you may not see Boomerang, I get that. You are the Catwoman, like, come on, you have got to do that. Question. How is it for you now, and what was your process?
When you say now, the first year, interesting enough, is something we have very similar. Besides that, my late husband was very convinced he was not going to make it to the age of 55. There were cardiac issues in his family. We, too, had a lot of conversations about what my life would look like in his absence. I, too, when we were standing up late, saying, “Dude, I need you to go to sleep. You’re talking too much. These do not make sense.” Lo and behold, at 51, he had a heart attack and died. I was like, I was then grateful for every conversation we had because I spoke to so many people who carry guilt or uncertainty about how their late partner would feel about them continuing living, because the world has a whole bunch of commentary.
When you have that safety net, I know, because we talked about it. My heart goes out to people who have never had that conversation. They struggle with the idea of continuing their lives. We had the conversation, but that first year, hot garbage. In three months, I learned what staring at paint looked like. I would just be like, “He died?” I was there, and I am just like, “That’s so crazy.” I know we live, and we die, but you are a person, and trying to understand who I am has been with me for 32 years.
Every goal in life was like, the kids were getting older, we’re about to be empty nesters. I am like, “The day emptiness went too far. They both went to the military, and he died, and I am home alone. This was not the version.” Just so, so grateful for my siblings, my friends, my faith, a few more whiskey showers than a person probably should have had in that first year. I will not pretend that it did not. Just allowing me to fall apart and not try to pretend that everything is okay.
There were weeks I did not take a shower. There was a long amount of time spent lamenting in bed, and a lot of therapy, a lot of journaling, a lot of talking. I remember my aunt, who is now deceased, her daughter, my first cousin, had passed, and she said, “Tina, you’ve got to get it out.” She said, “I would talk to a stranger on the street if I felt like it was hovering and needed to talk.” I learned that from her, and I had to get it out. I know it served me well.
Still, the anniversary of his passing and his birthday give me pause. I am okay with that. The reason being, when I think of 32 years that I spent with Mark Fornwald, if I take 32 years times 12 months, times hours, days, why would I think a very short period of time would go away? I believe in duality. I will always love him. I feel like it is more difficult for me to say I would not love him. He does not exist. I cannot talk about 32 years of my life without thinking of him, and part of that.
It became the idea, as you mentioned, the carrying forward. What do I let go of, and what do I move forward with? Those conversations rooted my ability to say, “I am still alive, and I still get to live and be happy.” Going back to purchasing property, we had purchased a property together, but the home I bought now was the first property I purchased by myself. I was so scared. I was like, “I’m going to do this, I’m going to sue myself.” I put in an application, doing everything, and the amount that they wanted me to get out, I said, “Nobody’s spending that money, I don’t know what you’re doing.”
I am like, we are going to be here and bust your bill. I remember closing on this house, and I came in here the day of closing with a blow-up mattress. I was like, “I am in here.” It was just like, I am enough. Whatever that looks like, if God has allowed me to still be in existence, I have purpose and I have meaning, and coming to terms with it, because I believe when we partner with someone, a lot of our identity becomes intertwined in that relationship. When they are no longer here, there is almost a separation of your soul trying to understand. I have to remember I was enough before him, then I am still enough now. I get to bring all of that we endured, went through, in this version of me.
Yeah, thank you.
You’re welcome. Being able to serve other people with this nonprofit. Even though I have faith, this organization is a non-faith-based 501(c)(3) supporting the bereaved because, as you mentioned, we know other people are having this experience, but if we do not hear them talking about it, our brain can tell us no one else is going through this. No one else is doing this to this level. People such as yourself choosing to share your story allows other people to know, “I am not the only person going through this.” That is important, I believe.
I agree. Representation.
You are looking like I have asked her the question. I do not have another, so I am not going to ask you unless you do.
Move away from checking off boxes of grief. Delving into this piece of understanding, exploring, and investigating a little bit more. Share on XI don’t have one.
Episode Wrap-up And Closing Words
I will allow you to close out this conversation with any final thoughts, maybe something we did not cover that you wanted to talk about, however you would like to do that.
For me, I just wanted to thank you for providing me with the space and the opportunity to initially start this discussion. It is going to be an ongoing discussion with my therapist and me, just about, really, me moving away from that space of checking off boxes and really delving into this piece of understanding and exploring and investigating a little bit more.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Important Links
- Dannie D on LinkedIn
- Widowhood Real Talk with Dr. Tina
- Widowhood Real Talk with Dr. Tina on YouTube
- Widowhood Real Talk with Dr. Tina on Facebook
About Dannie D.
Dannie, MSW, LCSW, is an acclaimed dancer, choreographer, and artistic director who has successfully transitioned into a highly accomplished Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) and Program Director.
Dannie began his career as a scholarship recipient at the Alvin Ailey American Dance Theater and was named one of Dance Magazine’s “25 to Watch” in 2001. He was a premier dancer with the Dayton Contemporary Dance Company (1999-2004) and served as Artistic Director for ensembles like the San Diego Contemporary Dance Ensemble. His work, including “Blessed Assurance,” earned him numerous accolades, such as the 1997 Tommy Award for Best Male Performer/Choreographer.
Leveraging his unique blend of professional leadership and creative problem-solving, Dannie transitioned to the field of clinical social work. Based in San Diego, CA, he holds a Master’s degree in Clinical Social Work from Simmons University. He has extensive experience in clinical program development, staff supervision, and patient care, having successfully led teams at organizations like Telecare Corporation and New Alternatives, Inc. His clinical expertise includes Trauma-Focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (TF-CBT), Motivational Interviewing, Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), and Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy (CBT), with a dedication to providing high-quality mental and behavioral health care to diverse populations.
