In this episode of Widowhood Real Talk with Dr. Tina, Dr. Tina welcomes Phil Allen, a hospice chaplain and author who has spent more than three decades walking alongside people facing loss, death, and life’s most difficult seasons. Together, they discuss what grief really looks like, why healing cannot be rushed, and how faith can become a source of comfort rather than pressure during widowhood. Drawing from his book, The Ache in the Ordinary, Phil shares gentle wisdom about finding God’s presence in everyday moments, embracing honest conversations about pain, and discovering hope even when answers are hard to find. Whether you’re newly widowed, supporting someone who is grieving, or seeking encouragement in your own journey, this conversation offers compassionate insight and practical hope. I am sharing my experience of loving the same man for 32 years, a mother to two adult children, a retired military officer, a breast cancer survivor, and my connections with others.   Anyone experiencing suicidal thoughts should reach out to a suicide hotline or local emergency number in their country: Psychology Today Suicide Hotlines and Prevention Resources Around the World. — Watch the episode here   Listen to the podcast here   What A Hospice Chaplain Wants Every Widow To Know About Grief With Phil Allen Our guest is Mr. Phil Allen. He’s worked as a lawyer, a pastor, a counselor, and now as a hospice chaplain. His book grew out of that winding path. Let’s get into this conversation now.     Philip, welcome to widowhood. Thank you. It is an honor for me to be here. Honor, thank you, welcome. People usually don’t gravitate that way towards the whole grief thing. Why is that an honor for you in welcome? Naming The Reality Of Universal Pain It’s because we all have it. Often, we think of people in the major seasons of life where it’s just horrible. Certainly, a lot of your readers are in that or have come through that, going through it. The reality is, whether we’re in one of those huge losses or it’s just the pain of life, we all have it. There’s part of me that wonders if somehow culturally, we’re trying to condition ourselves to not admit pain. Probably many years ago, I would not have said if it’s an honor to be on a grief show, but now I do just because so many of us are experiencing it. Having the freedom to talk about it and name it is an honor. What if the world was more welcoming to reality? Life and pain go together. Instead, my life is only amazing when it looks fabulous and airbrushed. Everything is perfect. Can perfection be part of pain in grief? Pain and grief lead to perfection. I suppose that I’d probably need to condition that by saying, I think that so much of perfection is connection. It’s ultimately through connection to God, but connection to each other as well. We most fully become the people we were intended to be. Yes, certainly in this life. Grief is part of perfection. A path to perfection. What a great question. What if the world were open to it? I feel like we’d all be more complete. We’d all be more whole human beings. We’d have space for each other and for ourselves that we don’t always have. For the person that heard everything you said, and was like, “Yes,” and then you said that God word. That’s the part that they wrestle with and feel like, “I’m not sure if that’s part of my story.” Do I understand that? To give you a little bit of my background. I was a pastor for a church for 30 years. I got burned out entirely and it was a spot where I didn’t think I believed anything. I didn’t honestly care if I believed anything or not. I went through a process where the only thing I can say is, from my vantage point, God gradually reintroduced himself to me. Finding Acceptance Through Spiritual Wrestling As he did that, I found a freedom, an acceptance, and an invitation in him that I hadn’t before. I’m a hospice chaplain now. One of the things that I will talk about with patients who don’t believe, but who will let me visit still is, “It’s okay to wrestle with whether you believe, what you believe, or how you believe. God’s bigger than that.” There’s a freedom also in just allowing ourselves the questions and the doubt and saying, “That doesn’t disqualify me from anything.” It can be a place of greater intimacy. Other clergy that are reading and can resonate with the words that you said but they’ve yet to say it out loud or share even come to terms in their own mind that they are there. What would you share with them? On one hand, I’d shared with them a caution because that was part of my burnout. I do have the sense that there are times and places where the church demands an unfair certainty from the clergy. Clergy are expected to have the answers, for their belief to be solid, their family to be healthy, and not to have doubts. I would caution them in maybe recognizing that in themselves that there are probably doubts there. Removing The Burden Of Certainty For Caregivers There’s probably anger and uncertainty. It’s okay. I was a human being 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, but I didn’t let myself be. I didn’t let myself have doubts, anger, and uncertainty that I was so willing to affirm and embrace in other people but not in me. I’m something greater. I’d just like to say it’s okay for you to genuinely feel lost at times, angry at times, mad and uncertain. It’s okay. What is the difference between being a hospice chaplain and a pastor? Someone looking from the outside is like, “Clergy is the same thing.” Share and help educate the