In this episode of Widowhood Real Talk with Dr. Tina, Dr. Tina welcomes Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, licensed clinical psychologist and author of Grieving Wholeheartedly: Bringing Healing to Every Part of Your Soul. Together, they explore why grief can feel so overwhelming, how emotions deserve compassion rather than suppression, and practical ways widows can begin healing after the death of a spouse. Dr. Audrey combines psychological expertise with a deeply compassionate approach to help grieving people navigate loss with greater understanding and hope.

Whether you’re newly widowed, years into your grief journey, or supporting someone through loss, this conversation offers practical insight, emotional validation, and evidence-based tools for moving toward healing one wholehearted step at a time.

I am sharing my experience of loving the same man for 32 years, a mother to two adult children, a retired military officer, a breast cancer survivor, and my connections with others.

Anyone experiencing suicidal thoughts should reach out to a suicide hotline or local emergency number in their country: Psychology Today Suicide Hotlines and Prevention Resources Around the World.

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Watch the episode here

Listen to the podcast here

Why Grief Feels So Overwhelming And How To Begin Healing With Dr. Audrey Davidheiser

Welcome to another episode of the show. Our conversation with Dr. Audrey is going to be helpful. There are things that we struggle with internally and in different parts of us, and we put them off. What if we learned to embrace every part of us in our grief and be able to look at grief differently? This conversation with Dr. Audrey, she’s talking about her passing of her dad and her struggles with grief. Most importantly, sharing with you IFS. IFS has the potential to change your grief perspective in a way you never imagined. Let’s get into this conversation now.

Dr. Audrey, welcome to widowhood.

Thank you so much for having me.

When you hear, “Welcome to the widowhood,” what comes to mind for you?

I don’t want to be welcomed to widowhood. I don’t want to be a widow.

For those that are reading and are, what do you think of them and the community that they created and being here in this conversation?

It’s a mighty brave community because my mom is a widow, and I know in her case. I would say most widows would say, “I don’t want this,” if not all widows. To live again after your spouse left and died and to join a community where you know that you are going to be talking about grief and loss. Issues are not easy, and it’s pretty heavy. My heart goes out to all the ways that are reading. I want to say thank you for creating this space for them.

Thank you. You’re welcome. You’re right, I wouldn’t pick and wouldn’t want this. I wouldn’t want this for anyone that I like or dislike. I would have wanted love. I would have wanted the person that I grieve for. Even to the point from people that I’ve spoken with. People in bad marriages deal with difficult things that they grieve. They grieve what did not happen in the relationship. They grieve unfulfilled expectations.

There is hurt no matter where your marriage lies. I want to say that because a lot of times, people feel like grief is only given to people that were in these happy marriages. The people that are grieving unhappy marriages feel like they don’t have a space to speak out loud and to share because who’s going to be upset? There’s things that they’re grieving also, and I just wanted to make mention of those people in this community.

They’re welcome here as well.

Thank you. You do work in the IFS space. For someone coming to this conversation for the first time and never hearing the term IFS. Could you speak about that please?

Understanding Internal Parts In Grief

It’s a modality in therapy. It basically says that each one of us has parts to our mind, our soul, and it doesn’t make you abnormal at all. When we notice some parts and personality, often what can happen is we think, “You’re having dissociative identity disorder.” Someone that has multiple personalities. That’s what the popular media has caricatured it as, but I’d like to think of it more as, if you observe the way you carry yourself. You are a different person when you’re with your children and when you’re at work, and if someone tries to cut you off on the freeway. That’s not the same version of you. I could see that you know what I mean.

Befriending Your Protective Internal Parts

Who are these people? They’re just one person, but there are different parts of us that show up in different circumstances. What internal family systems or IFS does is it just helps us understand that it’s a pretty normal human condition. Rather than like going, “That’s weird. I don’t want to go there.” We can understand our parts to the degree that we befriend them, they trust us, and we trust that they mean well.

Their tactics and strategies may not be all good. I grant you that, but they intend for us to be well and fine. The intention matters. To the degree that we can befriend our parts and know what they’re about and to know the burden that they’re carrying. We can help them unburden those burdens so that they can live the way we are intended to live, which is burden-free, carefree.

You mentioned the word modality. To make sure that our readers are understanding, can you describe what that word is, too?

Let’s just say somebody is depressed and they’re thinking, “Maybe I should see a therapist or a counselor.” Usually, the counselor would be working from a particular framework. CBT is a very popular cognitive behavioral therapy. If someone sees a CBT therapist, most likely that therapist is going to lead this client to change the way they think. Is there any evidence supporting that fallacious behavior or fallacious thought, for instance? That’s CBT. There’s EMDR or eye movement desensitization. That’s also very popular. IFS is another modality that is gaining popularity.

What drew you to the work of IFS?

Long story, but basically, one time there was an IFS expert that did a day-long seminar. I’m a psychologist. I’m licensed in California. Every two years, I’m supposed to renew my license and we need to take CE credits and take CE courses for that. This particular expert was holding the seminar near my office, so I thought, “I could even walk there. Why not?” I did that, and it was on IFS. He was describing the basic IFS principles. There came a time where he wanted us to practice with a partner.

For two and a half minutes, I became the therapist, and then my partner was the client, then we swapped roles. During the two and a half minutes that I was the client, I could feel my parts resenting me. I’ve been a psychologist all this time, my reactions stirred up doing what I thought to be a regular CE course. I felt resentment, and I was like, “This is really weird. Let me see into this. What is this IFS thing anyway?”

Back then, it wasn’t before IFS exploded in popularity. The speaker said, “You can get your name on waiting lists, and you can get trained.” I got trained for level one, which is the basic minimum qualification to practice IFS, and my life changed. That is not an exaggeration. I learned how to model. I did the model myself. We practice and the same triad, the practice members that we form after that training, are still meeting with me. We are hiring a consultant once a month. We’re now best buddies because we know each other’s business. We practice IFS on each other and everything. That’s how I was introduced to this model.

Thank you for sharing that. What drew you to writing a book?

To a degree, I’ve always loved reading even as a child. The jump from reading to writing doesn’t have to be that far. If you love reading, you probably could imagine writing as well. It wasn’t until maybe 2006 or so, or 2007. I’m a Christian and I felt the Lord said to me, “Go get into a writing course.” I said, “Why?” It’s because I’m a psychologist. No answer. I wanted to do it out of obedience and I enrolled myself in a writing course not knowing that in a matter of years, my father was going to die. The death happened suddenly. It was a heart attack. Nobody knew this was happening, but anyways, I took my writing course. I learned how to write to the masses. Instead of doing passive voices and big words that nobody knows what it means anyway.

Out of dissertation, buy a book that everyone wants to read, yes.

Exactly. I learned how to do that. I started writing articles online and, in my grief, I thought, “Why don’t I have helped other people who are grieving with the same modality? I can write about it. I can teach people.” This is IFS, and I can show examples. That’s how I began.

You mentioned that your life changed with the IFS. You also mentioned your father’s passing. Can you share your father’s name with us?

Yogi. It’s like a Yogi Bear.

When I asked you for your dad’s name, the smile that came over your face. I could see you thinking of the memories. That is something that people missed the opportunity to ask, what is our loved one’s name, and make them present in the conversation. You’ve been this mental health professional, you’ve learned IFS, and now your dad passes. How does your practice look different than before?

It’s like night and day completely. Before, I used to practice a modality that I will not name because I’m not here to cast that life. It was more like throwing darts in the dark. If someone comes to see me and they’re depressed. I’ll give an example again. I would go, “Tell me more about the depression,” and they would say more about it. I would say, “Could this be related to your childhood history?” Let’s say the class said, “I don’t think so.” In that modality, I would have been trained to think, “I think you’re resisting.”

Why do I know that you are resisting? Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe it’s not about childhood history at all. Sometimes there’s some success. More often than not, we’re just talking and I don’t know where we are going. Are we going anywhere? If not, why are we still on this journey? It was very maddening for me as the provider. Once I learned about IFS, my goodness. I’m not saying this to blow my own horn because I hate that. It’s the modality.

Let me preface it by saying this. When I was learning the model, I literally had a piece of paper with the six Fs, which is the steps to doing IFS. This is like, day number maybe three or four. It was very early in the learning process. I was like going, “Ask this step and then check with the client.” This was in practice. Not a real client. At some point, I was so lost. I didn’t know where I was. I turned to the assistant that was helping us train.

When I went back to my client, she was in tears. It wasn’t me. It wasn’t my skill. I was fumbling. I didn’t even know where we were going, but because of that, I thought, “There’s power in this modality that I can be fumbling around. If I just do what the steps say, it can heal somebody from their emotional pain.” I’ve had classes to say, “I have referred my entire office to see you.” I had somebody else say, “I met so, and we haven’t seen each other for like years.” The person asks his client, “Are you still seeing Dr. Audrey?” The client said yes, and then the person said, “I see the difference. Here’s a bunch of money. Go see her because you need this.”

By the way, this person also had been grieving a pretty dramatic loss. The difference between the last time the person saw the client to this, apparently, was significant enough that they were like, “Here’s some money to help you with your therapy fees.” I’ve never had those success stories before. To know that your client tells other people, “You guys need IFS therapy.” I’m not saying it. It’s the clients that are talking in their network. That, again, tells me that there’s something here that I’m so glad I stumbled on.

For the person that is a Christian, as you mentioned yourself being. They don’t see any benefit and mental health professionals or IFS. They believe they can read the Bible and their grief will go away. What would you say to them?

I would ask, is that how you treat your toothache too and your stomachache? Is there no aspirin in your mouth?

I think that is a part of people that missed the opportunity because they don’t look at it in that way. Have you had any experiences with people as being a provider and having to have that type of conversation about faith and how that shows up in mental wellness?

Addressing Misconceptions Between Faith And Mental Health

I do it in space like this in shows. The people that call my office, they clearly need the help. They know, “I need something like this.” They would not call me if they don’t feel it. It’s more than on this side of the world where we’re sometimes lamenting. Sometimes discussing what we can do better as professionals and mental health spaces. As well as being like, “Can we collaborate with Clergy?” What can we do to lower the stigma? What is the difference? If somebody has a toothache, I’m pretty sure they’re going to call a dentist and not just pray the toothache away.

What do you think it is about people of faith that mental health is the one place that they don’t want to treat it any differently than a toothache or a severed limb or an accident? When it comes to that, I don’t know if it’s hesitation, but what do you think that leads or it comes from?

I think it’s a combination of factors. One of them is this fear or preconceived notion that your faith isn’t strong enough if you’re still depressed. If you’re still grieving and your loved one died, how many years ago now? Your faith that small? It gets completely thrown into the faith column when it doesn’t have to be that. Our faith in God does not mean that God is not going to be displeased if we see someone who specializes in mental health. That’s one thing, but the other thing too, you can’t see depression.

You can see the symptoms but it’s not like, “Here’s the CT scan. Your heart is bleeding.” You can’t do that. It’s easier to say it’s all in your head. You have to just have a stronger mind. As opposed, “Maybe your heart is broken because your husband died.” As you said, even though the marriage was bad, maybe it was an arranged marriage. Maybe you didn’t want to be in that marriage, but still, you slept in the same bed with that man for years and he died.

Now you have a broken heart. Maybe that’s a pretty normal human condition. If you don’t have a broken heart, then I will have to question what happened. If you sleep with a dog every night and the dog dies. It is very normal for you to then be grieving the loss of the dogs. Why should the loss of her husband be dismissed as, “You have puny faith if you’re so grieving.” That’s cruel to say that.

I would agree with the word cruel. Your book is Grieving Wholeheartedly: Bringing Healing to Every Part of Your Soul. Tell us about the writing aspect of this book.

Validating Complex Emotions After Loss

I love the writing aspect. If I can jump a little bit to the question before this one. One more reason people are afraid sometimes to ask for mental health treatment is because of what I call to be lies. Such as, “Don’t listen to your feelings because your feelings lie.” When I wrote this book, it was with freedom because my goal is to tell people, why would your feelings lie to you? Why would they say something that is not true when they are part of you? They’re produced in your brain. If you feel a certain thing, it’s a signal that something in the outside world is happening that affects your internal world.

When I wrote this, it’s with that blend of, I wanted to tell the world or whoever wants to read the book that your feelings don’t lie to you. You just have to find out where they are coming from. Why do they say this to you? Also, how do I say it in a way that makes people want to read it as opposed to being like, “Boring. I know this?”

To that point, I have a few sections I’ve identified that I think would draw the person to go. Why would they want to read this and why would it be helpful for them? Before we do that, for the potential reader and as you were writing in this book. What was one of the biggest takeaways you wanted them to leave with? When they purchase the book and they read it and success would look like to you if they had X, Y, and Z thought process.

Success to me would look like my experience in that CE course. If they could do the exercises, even if they only do one exercise. They feel a response coming from the inside and they go. “I do have parts. I’m not crazy.” If they have that kind of reaction to where they’re like, “I need to find out more about my part because they are my parts. I want to know more about them.” I’m a Christian, so I believe in the Bible. There’s a verse in the Psalms that says, “I am fearfully and wonderfully made. I am just beginning to understand the wonderfulness of the soul.”

By the way, the parts that I talked about, I believe are parts of our soul. The parts of us that say, “I like vanilla and not chocolate, or I like this color but not that.” That’s the soul. Anyway, if a reader picks up this book and they have that reaction from their parts that makes them want to delve deeper and get to know that part or parts, that to me is success.

Let’s get into your book. If you would turn to the introduction and if you would read the first two sentences, please.

“Only two types of people exist. Those who have buried a loved one and those who will.”

Why was that statement so important to start this book?

To be very honest, I did not know I was going to bury my father at the age of 40. I assumed they both would go a long time. They would retire together because their love story is what I’ve always known in my life. When he went off script and died, I was like, “There is death.” I knew it but I didn’t know it.

It wasn’t personal. It was over there.

Not my family. Somebody else. I felt as though I needed to put that sentence there because this is a sad reality. Even if there’s somebody out there that’s reading our conversation and maybe death has not visited their family. I’m happy about that but I also want to say, “One day death will come.” Rather than being taken aback, like I was completely taken aback. Sometimes, they just go to prepare and to know, death is going to come. If it does happen, what is my game plan? How am I going to respond? That’s partly why.

This book could be for someone that may have not lost a low point in that idea of preparing. I know you would agree to this. Grief also is not limited to the passing of a loved one.

No.

There are so many different things that people are grieving, but I have found it, maybe you have found it, but it is the death of a loved one. That makes all the other coping skills show up lacking and can often be the thing that drives someone to mental health because they push this thing. They’ve done this, but the death of a loved one is like a slippery slope where all the other things that you were holding on to come falling down and now you realize none of this was good enough.

In that list of deaths of a loved one, death of a spouse ranks number one.

I know.

The death of a child is another big one up there. If Fluffy died, that’s sad. Your dog or your cat died. Maybe we can repress it. Put it away somewhere or someone was fired from their job. That’s also sad. I live here in LA, and the fires, the freaky fires that destroyed homes. In my church alone, thirteen families not just lost their homes but everything inside. From how having something to nothing overnight is a major loss. For some reason, it’s not until someone we truly love passes away that it’s like it stares us in the face. It asks us, “What do you do now? Now that you don’t have that mate, that you go to bed with for thirteen years. Now what?”

Life looks different and also wrestling with your own mortality. It becomes a question. On page fifteen, if you would read the third paragraph starting with A and ending with the question mark.

“A scent, a melody, a specific time of day. Something someone says, ‘Anything can trigger your grief.’ Please make room for your feelings when these tender moments materialize. Rather than avoiding them, how about feeling the loss in your life as an invitation to venture into your internal world where emotions reside?”

I want to say you provide space for the reader to reflect. Death triggers grief and invitation. People don’t like those words together but you made it an invitation. When you look at this and you’re reading this, how does this speak to you as a griefer? Not the author. Not the mental health professional, but a daughter whose dad is no longer here.

It was very recently that I thought of my dad that he’s not here. I was listening to another show and I just thought, “I don’t have a dad anymore,” when the hosts were talking about having a relationship with their fathers. Even when I read a specific time of day. In the morning, I love that I could hear birds chirping in my house. He would imitate birds. He would pretend he was like a big bird and whistle.

If a bird looks quizzical, he’d be so encouraged and would whistle some more. I can’t help but think of my dad in morning times when I do hear the birds. I’d be like, “I wish you were here so you could whistle and have his dialogue with the bird world.” It’s a reminder for me that, “When was the last time I gave space for my grief?” I have parts that are missing my dad. He was such a lovely soul. He was very kind. I miss my father. That’s what it does for me as a griefer.

Also, I would ask this. For the griever, they hear the word invitation and trigger grief. They are prone to run from it. They are prone to say, “I am not going to allow myself to lean into that because I’ll never be able to get up. Yet you invite me to embrace pain.” What would you say to them?

That’s why the concept of having parts is helpful because of that person who said, “I’m not going to do that because I will not stop crying or I will not be able to do anything else,” that’s the manager’s part. Manager parts have a reason for existence. They don’t like messy emotions because of that reason. What if I let you cry and then you become overwhelmed to the point where you can’t function in life?

Negotiating Space With Manager Parts

My invitation for that particular person is to sit with the manager part. I talked about it in the book. There are things that we can offer our managers, like, “Would you allow me to grip for five minutes?” If you keep your word and you start that alarm clock. By the time five minutes are up, you move away from that grief gently. The next time the wave of sadness comes back, you can ask the same manager, “The last time I talked to you I said five minutes and I kept my word. Will you let me grieve for ten minutes now?” We can negotiate with manager parts and say, “Only because I grieve does not mean that I forget that I still have to cook for my kids, for instance, or whatever your tasks are.”

On page 87, numbing to know.

Recognizing Numbing Tactics And Unhealthy Coping

“Addictive substances are only one among firefighters’ many tools to protect us from grief. Addiction comes from the Latin word which is just being given over to something in devotion. As we have seen before in their furious attempt to shield us from emotional flames, firefighters will entice us to devote our attention to anything other than the pain. If their efforts fail, you can expect them to deploy two other tactics, numbing and dissociation. Some people have relied on substances to numb their pain, but a firefighter can numb us emotionally without the use of any substance. For instance, experiencing trauma can make some survivors feel nothing but numb.”

Going back to the idea, not wanting to feel the pain. Trying to use this unhealthy coping skill but it doesn’t last.

Correct. Not only does it not last, the pain is still there just waiting to explode. When it does explode, usually it comes in the most inopportune time. Nobody likes grieving. We started out the conversation that way. Nobody wanted to be a widow, but it’s here. This is the reality. Rather than avoiding it, let’s partner with it. Realize that there are parts of our soul that are so attached to this person or thing or dream that died. They’re literally bleeding. They are crying out for help. If, as a person, see somebody else that is clearly hurting and in need of help. What kind of a heartless person are you to walk by and say, “I don’t have room for this?” We do that with our own parts.

We do that to ourselves. For the person that’s reading, and they have been a numb professional. They have made sure they’re busy. They have made sure work is always going. They make sure that they’re controlling their emotions. They have been drinking two glasses of wine just after this spouse passed because they can’t go to sleep. In the idea of not using that coping skill, it seems impossible. How would they benefit from what you’re sharing in this book?

I would say, first of all, I’m going to thank the alcohol drinking part because there’s a part that encourages this person’s right to drink. Thank you for doing that because you’re doing a service here. I’m going to ask this person, “Do you like that you have to drink in order to go to sleep?” “Yes, it’s a habit by now. It’s fine.” In doing so, you’re also numbing right? It’s almost like there’s no point in living. Everything is numb.

I wouldn’t put it that way. What if I were to tell you there’s a better way to approach life after the death of your spouse? It might cost some discomfort but in the long run, you are opening yourself back again to the full colors of life instead of just going to work, very busy at work. You come home. You drink and you sleep. That’s life, I guess, but it’s not life to the abundance where you can smile again and laugh again. You will cry, of course. I wrote about it, too. Once you lose someone that you really care for, life is different. There’s no way to go back to life before they left or they died, but you can still smile. You can still enjoy life.

It’s no longer just existing, but learning that there is some joy in life. I don’t want to give all the book away, but I would like it if you would read page 181.

The entire page?

Yes, please. It’s not that much.

“Outwardly busy, inwardly grieving. The slogan describes my world as the 6th anniversary of my father’s death is approaching. The last three months, I rotated from attending to my practice, packing and then unpacking. The house we have been restoring is finally ready. To hunt for lost items, I knew I saw somewhere, stealing fleeting moments to write.”

“My industrious parts juggled all of the above while acutely reflecting on my fatherly state. James 1:2-4 exhorts us to, ‘Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.’ By no means have I obtained full maturity, I can alphabetize the list of things I still lack, but because examining your grief every so often, especially on significant milestones like the anniversary of your loss is fitting. I will do so today.”

We started talking about your dad. We started talking about your grief. I think it’s fitting to end with this section. Though, people reading this conversation may have a spouse that is no longer here. From what I’ve read and what you shared in your heart and your wisdom, this book and getting to know more about you has a strong potential to help them to live in a different way. When you read this now, what do you think of?

Thank you so much for saying that. It’s meaningful to hear that. The question I asked myself is, if you know the many people that this book can help, if you have the power, though. Would you trade your dad’s life? Would you rather he stays here? If he were still living, this book would not have been in existence. Why would I write it? He’s here. I’m happy. I’m not fatherless. I wish I could have the power to say, “Come back. I miss you dearly. Look at all these updates that I haven’t been able to tell you because you’re not here.”

Using Personal Loss To Serve Others

On the one hand, there’s an ache in my heart because I am still fatherless and I wish he could be here. On the other side, as my psychologist heart, I’m here because I want to help people with their emotional pain. Since I don’t have a say in how long my dad lived, what I can do is use that painful grief to help others. If this book can help widows or we widowers, there are people that lost their wives or people that lost their child and if this book can help people that lost their houses and all kinds of crazy, scary stories that are happening in our world. I would love to even give it away if someone can’t buy it. It’s not a perfect answer.

Do we have perfection in this world? If so, please tell me the address so I can go. I don’t think that’s an option. How would one contact you if they wanted to work with you? How does that set go?

I am only licensed in California, so I can see people if they reside here. Since this book is like seeing a therapist in a book because there’s exercise, in a way they’re working with me if they work through the exercise. I came up with the questions and the prompts. Other than that, they can also subscribe to my Substack. I usually send out one Substack a month because I don’t have time, unfortunately, to do more than that, and they can follow me online.

Where would they purchase your book?

It would be on Amazon. Type Greeting Wholeheartedly and go from there.

I try to give my guests an opportunity to be the host. Do you have any questions for me?

How did it feel to be interviewing me on this book?

There is a part of you, and I think we did a good job of dividing that. The mental health professional, the daughter, the Christian, and the caring heart to be open to that. Sometimes, the more we learn, the more we make ourselves unavailable in a transparent way. I have learned only in connecting with our true humanity and being transparent. Are we able to show up and serve? I think you showed us that part of you.

Thank you for saying that.

You’re welcome. I will allow you to close out this conversation to the people that have joined us.

I can say so much. I have to be selective in what I say. First of all, I’m so sorry for your loss. That’s probably why they’re here, because again, if there’s no loss in their lives, they’re probably watching soap operas or something, but here they are. This is coming from someone who has lived through and continues to live through loss and grief.

I’m not here to peddle my book and increase book sales. I’m here because I want to help see emotional pain erased a little at a time. If you find this conversation to be helpful, maybe check Grieving Wholeheartedly. There’s a learning curve because IFS is probably something that you haven’t heard before, but I promise you once you get the ABCs and understand the basics, this is going to cost you to be interested in yourself in the parts that make up who you are. In doing so, I wish you a well, rich journey into your inner world to where your grief can be lessened, and you can live again.

Thank you.

Important Links 

• Audrey Davidheiser
• Audrey Davidheiser on Instagram
• Audrey Davidheiser on Substack
• Grieving Wholeheartedly: Bringing Healing to Every Part of Your Soul

About Dr. Audrey Davidheiser

Understanding Grief: Navigating the Path to Healing Discover the healing power of heartfelt grieving by reading Grieving Wholeheartedly. In life’s toughest moments, our emotions can feel like a storm at sea—conflicting waves of anger, sadness, and fear crashing together. But within these turbulent waters lies the potential for profound healing.